New, scorched, convert: ANTI debit cards!
 

Hi
Just last week I was saying here that I have a debit card with a Mastercard logo and have found it to work well both for travel and managing personal finances. Those days are OVER!
I wasn't traveling, but last weekend some thief provided my debit card number including the 3-digit authorization code on the back, to charge thousands of dollars on an on-line purchase. I have never lost my card, but have used it for purchases both in-person, by fax, with toll-free numbers, and on-line. If the vendor's (Dell computers) fraud department hadn't noticed such a large order being shipped to an address that was not the cardholder's, and if my bank (Chase) hadn't also been helpful and quick-acting when I called them, a large amount of money would have come out of my checking account plus many of my own pending checks would have bounced. As it was, with a couple of conference phone calls and cooperation between Dell and Chase, this was corrected in minutes over the phone, and on a Saturday. I was very lucky. If I'd been traveling, most aspects of this problem would have been more time consuming and more serious.

By the way, asking for an ATM-only card is often something you have to request; the default card issued otherwise will usually be a debit card with a VISA or MC logo. Unlike debit cards, ATM cards don't give spending "points" but I'll just use the credit card for those.

This is why I've opened a new checking account at a different bank from where I receive paycheck and pay bills. I'll put only the money I plan to use for a trip in the acct and use that Debit card while traveling, so as to minimize any turmoil with my regular bank account.

I do, however, use a Check card for normal/local purchases, and will continue to do so, and just keep a very close eye on my account activity. I hate writing checks and refuse to do it if not the only way to pay. There are ways to commit fraud with paper checks, too - one should never put payments in their own mailbox for the mailman to pick up. Always use a PO box to deposit any envelopes with a check enclosed.

I totally agree with Elaine. It's never happened to me personally but I know enough people who it has happened to. That's why I also have an account seperate from my regular main account. The main account has just an ATM card and we never use it for anything other than cash from an ATM. I charge everything else (to get the miles, also pay it off each month). But because of the recent thread here about having trouble getting money in Europe without the VISA/MC logo on the card I did open a second account just for travel.

Hi elaine,

Have you used your card as a charge card as well as a debit card?

It sounds as if this was a fradulent charge rather than a debit to your bank account.

Ira, that is precisely the issue. A debit card, even though it carries the logo of a credit card company (e.g., Visa, Mastercard)immediately deducts the $ from your account. It is NOT a credit card that one pays off at the end of the month. The logo indicates that the transaction can be processed through the electronic systems of that particular CC company (with the company taking a cut from the merchant - that's why WalMart fought against allowing use of debit cards with a MasterCard logo) but it is still treated as an immediate debit from the user account.

Hi seamus,

Can they do that without a PIN?

I'm not sure about this because I don't want a debit card and refuse to accept them from my bank, but I think debit cards can be used as credit cards, also, not solely as debits directly from your account. I sort of think that is why there is a VISA/MC logo on them in the first place, otherwise VISA wouldn't really have anything to do with your bank account. I think VISA/MC may handle the transactions somehow, also, and that's why it's their product, but I think I remember my bank saying it could be used as a charge card.

Well, as I've said, I don't want one because I have no desire to ever use a debit card and I never write checks to local merchants, either, so that isn't the issue. For me, it just doesn't make sense to have to keep track of all those debits in my checkbook instead of just writing one check a month for a credit card bill. Also, from a fiscal point of view, it does make more sense to use the credit card's money for a month without paying interest, rather than your own, but that isn't why I do it (and that amount would be minor).

I know some people don't have the fiscal management or discipline or something with credit cards, and I guess that's why they think debit cards are better for them, even though it's the same amount of money you'll have to pay to buy things.

I was just thinking maybe I was being overly cautious about the debit card thing, even though I don't ever want to use a debit card, if it were true ATMs in Europe start not accepting ATM-only cards. I'm still not sure about that issue, though, that sounded strange to me, but I'll find out soon. What I was noticing the other day is that you can use credit cards without a signature or scrutiny, also, as I use them all the time at gas stations. And of course, for online purchases. I think the issue is that the money comes right out of your checking account immediately with a debit card, rather than being purchases that can be disputed between companies' banks for some time period.

ira,
They sure can!

And there was a post not long ago, from Patrick, I think, saying debit cards without the Visa/MC logo were not working whereever he was. I had been planning on getting and additional account and card without the logo but if that is the case , it would be useless .

Well, thanks folks. I learned something.

I knew I had to be careful with the ATM card. Now I will be paranoid.

But how did they get Elaine's card number, including the authorization code on the back, if she didn't give it to someone?

hi
Long before e-shopping, I once had a problem years ago when someone started charging purchases on a home shopping
network using my credit card number.
It wasn't a debit card, the card had never been stolen, but someone at a vendor's or merchant's venue, probably an employee, had copied down my number and used it.

The same could have occurred in this case, I was using my debit card for everything from groceries to restaurants to hardware to hotels to e-shopping. Anyone along the way could have written down or hacked into the account info, in person, from a fax, from a shopping website.

To agree with the info above, the debit card can be used either for a purchase, like any credit card, or for cash from an atm, but the amount comes out of your checking account immediately (or the amount is "frozen" in your checking account). I find that sometimes I need to supply the PIN (in my grocery store, for example) but often not, in a restaurant or in a clothing store or on-line or at a hotel, etc. PIN or not, the money comes out of my bank account.

In my rush to share my born-again atm-card preaching, I forgot the recent thread about Patrick and perhaps someone else not being able to use an atm-only card in atms in Europe to get cash. So now I have to pay attention again, when I travel in December, what will I need to have? Just when I think I have the "right" answer...

So far it sounds like the best plan as mentioned above is to have a separate checking account for ATM/Debit card use only.

I've just about decided that's what I'm going to do. Either that or just bite the monetary bullet and get one of those American Express Travelcards . They have some deal with AARP and the fees aren't as high . I'll have to check further.

I've heard in Europe all of the credit card carriers are going to require a PIN for credit card or ATM transactions. Wish they'd do that here!

Just be very careful when using a debit card, or having it on your person for that matter. My husband had his wallet stolen in Barcelona and the nightmare it caused went on for over a year. The big problem was not the credit cards, but the debit card they got their hands on. The clever theives racked up over $3500 in charges to credit cards and the debit card in less than one hour- the time it took to get the cards canceled. The credit card companies- yes he was careless and had more than one with him - refunded all the money with no problems. But when fraudulent activity takes place on a debit card, affidavits are required. The theives knew how to use the card even on a closed account - we ultimately had to close our checking account and open another one to change the linked number - but charges kept coming on through for over a year. I had to vigilantly check the account daily for charges for a long time. And word to the wise - if your wallet gets stolen, IMMEDIATELY go to the police to report the theft. Our credit card companies needed the report information. Plus, my husband's driver's license was mailed back to us from the US Consulate in Barcelona 3 months later based on the report. The other important thing is to report the theft to the credit reporting companies in the USA as soon as you can. Debit cards have given us access to cash all over the world, and for that we are grateful. We live foreign and I use my debit card at the atms for all my spending money as the banking here is rather of suspect so I just assume keep my $ in the US, but it never leaves my hand and I usually keep it locked up when I am not in need of it, no matter where I am.

My debit card has the VISA logo on it and when I received the card it had a sticker with the phone number to call to activate the card. I spoke to the bank about the activation and I was told you don't have to call and activate it to use as a debit card. The only reason to activate the card is to use it as a check card. I didn't want a check card because they don't require a PIN and are too easy for a thief to use. I just pulled off the sticker and threw it away and keep the card as a debit card only.

I just checked with our bank and was told that the ATM-only cards will work fine in Europe but that access will be restricted to checking only.

I have had this happen to me and again, it was a vigilant person in the fraud department at my bank who caught it.

I hadn't been traveling or made any online or phone purchases, so the only thing we could trace it back to was a purchase that I made at a place that still used imprints and carbons. I had grown out of the habit of asking for my carbons and so I must have left them behind.

The one good thing is that the cardholder cannot be held responsible for fradulent withdrawals and charges over $50. Not that it's much comfort when you're traveling and you check your account to see that there's a big sum missing.

Be ever vigilant. . .

my thought about opening a separate account for only expenses while traveling, is to wonder how much to put it it. If I budget, say, $2000 strictly for cash withdrawals during a trip and put that amount in the special account, what happens if some emergency occurs and I need a last minute new air ticket, or I'm injured and need some special arrangement, or I lose my credit card and need to withdraw a lot of extra cash to pay my hotel bill? I wouldn't have enough cash available in that special account and couldn't even transfer in any from savings in the other bank.

But elaine, you could bring your other card along as a backup. If something really happens (of course this won't happen, but if it does....) you could use the backup instead.

By the way, is there a limit for the withdrawal amount for ATM cards that double up as debit/credit cards?

forgot to ask 1maroc:

How do I notify credit reporting companies?

When I asked Dell computers if I should report this incident to the police, she said I could but probably it would just be filed, since the crime was attempted, but was foiled, and I wasn't actually out any money. So I guess attempted fraud doesn't get police attention.

Can't they locate the person who did attempt to rip you off? If there was a shipping address for merch., where was it?

If fraudulent charges were made, the bank will reimburse its customer and take whatever steps needed to recover its losses. Sometimes these transactions are not prosecuted but charged off instead (very expensive to investigate and prosecute).

the shipping address was within New York City, where I live myself.
I don't know if the vendor pursues a criminal investigation, probably not.

Yes, perhaps I wouldn't have been responsible for the charges, ultimately.
But in the meantime it would have come right out of my bank account, not just charged to a line of credit.

Much the same thing happened to us several years ago. Again it was a computer, but this time the computer had been shipped to an address we knew nothing about. We had to submit a notarized statement saying that we knew nothing about the purchase, but our account was credited fairly quickly.

As far as I could tell, someone who hacked into the Bibliofind.com web site must have picked our number up there. But the card issuer wasn't very interested about the fraud aspect, which still seems odd.

You will probably have to contact each of the three major credit bureaus yourself.

When you do, you may want to have them set up a temporary "Hawk Alert" on your account. This will flag any incoming requests for new credit in your name. They will automatically be denied. If you have a legitimate need for credit during this time period, you just call the bureaus and advise them of this and there will be no problem granting you credit for that specific purpose. It's a pain to do, but better safe than sorry. . .

this makes me uncomfortable too, I don't like credit cards and prefer to pay for things straight up, but I am paranoid that some waiter will copy down my numbers and use them at will. So I have a credit card with a small limit and I use that for restaurants & hotels. store purchases and the like I am less worried about although I suppose the risk is there as well.

I did notice in Switzerland (maybe France too) they print out your entire card number as well as expiration date right on the receipt! so be careful about throwing your receipts out. they stopped doing that in the US some time ago.

I had the VISA portion of my VISA check card disabled when I went to Ireland just for this reason -- someone could steal the number and charge up my VISA portion and wipe out my checking account. You could probably get the money back, but what a hassle.

It worked, and the card cannot be used without the PIN. When I returned to the States, I forgot to enable the VISA, and when I tried to use it, the purchase was rejected.

I understand their are scams now that when you use your credit card, people with camera cell phones take a picture of your credit card numbers.

It takes a thief. ((b))

>How do I notify credit reporting companies?<

To report fraud call

Equifax 1.(800) 525-6285
Experian 1 (888).397-3742
TransUnion 1 (800) 680-7289

My B of A/ Visa ATM card has a limit for both withdrawals and spending each day. I don't see how your account could be cleaned out before either you or the bank became suspicious. Nor do I understand how someone could spend thousands of dollars with an ATM card if there are limits.

I would never use this card online or by fax,even though my bank guarantees that money taken fraudulently from my account will be replaced by the next business day.

Underhill -- don't believe your bank. "Europe" is a big place, and our ATM-only card didn't work in Belgium a few years ago. I only found out why a few weeks ago by reading this forum. My bank is still clueless, it seems. But such cards won't work anywhere I could find in Belgium, and now apparently many Italian banks are following suit.

Happy travels!

thanks ira for the info on the credit agencies

ira, you are so helpful.

One more thing I learned from experience. Your local police will probably not do anything regarding credit card fraud. Believe it or not, you need to report it to your local branch of the Secret Service. They are the agency charged with investigating credit card fraud, which surprised me, but the agents I dealt with were very nice and very reassuring.

I have been watching these posts lately about credit card fraud, identity theft, etc. They are very helpful and I'm almost ready to change my debit card to an ATM only card for our upcoming trip.

A few years ago we were the victims of identify theft... someone at a cell phone company most likely sold our personal information to a thief... this is usually how the big rackets work... they get some overworked, burned out clerk at a large company, doctors office, whatever to sell a big batch of names. Anyway, he ended up ordering thousands of dollars of merchandise online, opening a dozen cell phones and racking up thousands of dollars of charges... even opened up a "Zales" (low end jewelry/diamond store) with a $12000 limit. All this was in just a few short days. Luckily we weren't responsible for any of it, but it took a lot of time and effort to clear them all off our credit report and clean the matter up. My experiences with this have turned us into total privacy freaks, but also very cautious with our credit information. Even when stores ask for your personal information for a purchase or a return, I just decline. I figure there's no legit reason to add my name to another database somewhere that can get hacked or copied for foul play.

With our theft, we even had an address where the merchandise was shipped to, and both our and their local police wouldn't take action since it wasn't a big crime. Drugs and guns, they'll go after. ID theft is nothing. The irony is they ultimately caught and booked the guy on related gun charges and found our name among the many victims in his "office." What gets worse is when he was released from jail 6 months later all his files, even though they were used in a crime, went back to him and he started up again... a SECOND time! Luckily by then we had added fraud alerts to all 3 of the credit bureaus, and have since added secondary passwords to all of our banking accounts. It is simply much too easy for people to guess at or buy your personal information these days.

~kat

ttt

just fyi
I called equifax's toll free number, it was an automated system that claims to notify the other two credit reporting agencies as well, free of charge.
I added a credit alert to my data suupposedly, and got a confirmation number.

Just to give some input how my Norwegian cards work. I've got a debit/check card with a VISA logo and and a VISA cc number on it. So this means I can use the card on the net with just the credit card number and expiry date, or I can use it locally in Norway. Locally I use the "BankAxept" logo which is a national bank cooperation system which means I can use it in all ATM's and all shops that take cards, then with a pin number as security. I swipe the card and enter my 4 digit pin code. But even though this card has a VISA logo i can NOT charge more than what is in the account, but I can withdraw that money through VISA's network.
The security system I use to secure my money is simply that my bank (which is a n internet only bank) allows me upto 10 accounts free of charge and I use one acocunt for spending money. My paycheck goes into one account without card access, my savings are in another account without card access. And I simply transfer the money instantenously between the accounts myself through the internet interface (or through a phone interface if I want), and that way if someone gets any of my cards they can steal around $100-$300 depending on how much is in my account at the moment, which is a hassle but nothing more. That way I get the freedom of easy card use and the security that theifs can't access any large amounts of money. I do have to make sure I transfer moeny from my incomning paycheck account to my spending account but I think that is also a good way to be able to control my spendings :)

Sindre

I also have refused to accept a debit/ATM card for my Bank of America checking account for these reasons. I asked before my recent trip to Italy if my ATM card would work in the machines there, the teller said yes, but then telephoned my home 5 minutes later to tell me she was wrong, it had to have the Visa logo to work (my husband took the call so I don't know if this is just Italy, Europe, outside the BoA network, or what just yet).

What I do when I know I am going out of the country for a trip, I send in extra money in advance to my preferred credit card account (great customer service and good exchange rate, no conversion fee) to have a credit balance, then use my Mastercard as an ATM card. It is technically a cash advance when I use the card in a machine, but because I have a credit balance in my account, no cash advance fees are charged. I could also send enough so I can use the card for purchases as well. Or, I could use my second credit card for credit card purchases so I pay it at the end of the month as usual.

The only glitch I ran into this time is I could not pay extra online, but had to mail in a physical check in advance of my trip to Italy.

Kay2
now that sounds like a plan! No need for a separate account, no need for any additional cards, and you are withdrawing cash with no interest, and making purchases, all with the same card. The only thing I might think about is having a backup card or plan should that one card be lost--maybe I'll go back to a couple of hundred euro in trav. checks

anyone have comments on Kay2's sugggestions?

Elaine:

I set up a checking account for my ATM card, and only keep a small amount in that account. My bank allows on-line transfers between accounts, so I can replenish the checking account at any time. Transfers between accounts in my bank are immediate; transfers to accounts at other banks are said to take a couple of days, although I have noticed that some do post almost immediately.

Kay2,

When you come back from your trip can you please tell us if you have encounter any problems retrieving cash with your credit card?
I am going back next year, I have regular credit cards and also an ATM card from a bank that I use solely for my travel needs.
Thanks..:)