If relying on trains and traveling as much as previsioned then you may want to look at the Eurail Select Saverpass - for 3, 4 or 5 countries and note that if you buy one of these before the end of March you get one extra day free on a 6-day or longer pass - about a $60 value or so so if this pass is in the cards...

This time, since we will hit smaller places, my US thought process kicks in, assuming a car will be more convenient, and faster>

Trains go up to about 190 mph in several European countries - hard to compete time-wise if going between large tourist meccas - where hotels may not even offer parking and city centres often restrict private vehicular traffic.

Cars are great for exploring rural areas and going to small towns but if going to mainly large cities IMO and IME the train will be more efficient time wise.

I don't know why you think you'd have to take a bus after your train rides -- >

me either - in all my decades of European train riding I can think of only a handful of times I had to take a bus from the train to my destination - it must be a pretty small town and then if so the bus will usually go right from the train station. Not a factor and between key cities there are usually direct trains with no change of trains required.

Your boys will travel for free in Switzerland on trains, boats and lifts if you get a Family Card with your Swiss passes. Three-day Saver passes are often the best deal for an itinerary tht takes you from Zurich to the Berner Oberland, then several days there, then to Germany or austria>

it depends on whether the consecutive day saver passes comport to your itinerary - if in Swiss for only 4, 8 or 15 days then opt IMO for the consecutive day pass as it will cover you from get there to get go 100% on nearly everything that moves in Switzerland (and also free entry to over 400 Swiss museums) - but as enzian says the 3-day Swiss Flexi Saverpass is often a better option because folks usually do not fit the exact lengths of the consecutive-day passes - and the way the Flexipass works is that you get 3 100% covered travel days to be used over a one-month period - at your choosing - doing your most expensive trips on 100% covered days and in between the 1st and 3rd day of unlimited 100% calendar-day travel then you do get 50% off everything that moves practically in Switzerland - so this is the best for folks there say five, six or perhaps even 7 days.

After some extensive readings, I have finally come up with the more detailed itinerary. Not set in stone, though. I would love to hear your feedback. Feel free to change it from your perspective.

Our thought process for this itinerary: We have decided to rent a car from day 1. Taking Rick Steves' advice, car is good for Switzerland's French country area and Bavaria area. So for sure we will rent a car part of the trip. We just think maybe it is easier just to have the car for the whole trip for some day tripping as well (Usually you have the best car selection at the airport). This is not set in stone, though. I understand we don't need a car while in BO, but can still use it for day tripping to Luzern, and Bern. The other option is to rent the car at Bern to drive to Lake Geneva, and return it at Munchen. Do we need to go to Bern airport to get the car with automatic transmission? The downside is kids won't have the train ride experience. For the car rental issue, I really would love to get your feedback.

D1 Arrive in Zurich @ 11 am . Tour Zurich. Pick up car to drive to BO
D2 day trip to Luzern or BO depending on weather
D3 BO or Luzern
D4 BO
D1-D4 Sleep in BO. Rick Steves recommend Gimmelwald or Murren. I am debating betw these places (+ views, - expense and headache of mountain lifts) vs Lauterbrunnen (easier car access but not very good mountain views). We will be there for 4 nights, that is lot of mountain lifts. I really don't like the idea to stay one night in e.g. Murren, other 3 nights in Lauterbrunnen, that day may happen to be foggy, and best for day tripping. What is my best option?

D5 Leave for Bern. Tour Bern. Sleep in Lausanne
D6 Tour Chateau Chillon, and French countryside: Montreux, Gruyeres Sleep in Lausann

D7 Drive to Freiburg (meet some friends in Basel). Sleep in Freiburg.
D8 Drive thru Black Forest all day. Sleep in Baden Baden

D8 AM bath. Drive to Rothenburg. Sleep there

D9 Drive to Fussen on Romantic Road (all day, leisure drive)
D10 Bavaria - castles
D11 Bavaria area Visit Garmisch-Partenkirchen
D9-D11 sleep either in Fussen or Reutte

D12-D15 Munchen (4 nights) Day trip to Salzburg. return car.
D15 fly home.

The drop charge between Switzerland and Austria could be very steep.

Take a look into dropping the car in Lausanne/ Bern/ Basel, taking the train to Freiburg, the picking up a German rental and dropping it in Munich when you ARRIVE. You don't need it all in Munich, will pay for parking and Salzburg is a cinch to do by day trip.

It will save you 5 days on the rental plus the drop charge and parking. Germany is also the cheapest country in which to rent a car. Your boys will get a couple of train rides, too.

Hi again,

I've been travelling to Montreux on Lake Geneva practically every year since 1995, and, no, you really honestly do NOT need a car to see it. Particularly not with your itinerary.

One of the nicest scenic train routes runs from Interlaken to Montreux, the Golden Pass. That would seem to be an obvious choice for your trip. Then, if you opt to stay in either Vevey or Montreux, your hotel will give you a Riviera Card, which gives you free transport on all the busses between Vevey and Villeneuve (including Chillon). On the days when you don't want to take the bus, you can hop a ferry and enjoy the views of the vineyards from the boat.

Parking is really inconvenient, expensive, and competitive all along Lake Geneva. In addition, you'll probably see the ugly grey smog of fumes hanging over the lake -- you may be happier if you end up not contributing to it!

Also, a car in the Oberland really doesn't make sense, since all of the mountaintops and the sweetest village do not even allow cars. If you stay in Mürren or Gimmelwald, your car will just accumulate parking fees while it stays parked in Lauterbrunnen.

And as I said above, a car in a city just doesn't make sense.

I understand how much Americans love their cars (I'm American too), but sometimes they really are not the best option.

s

Hi TravellelerGreenBay,

We had a car during our trip last fall - basic route was Lake Como>Chateau Chillon>Bern>Berner Oberland>Munchen/Bavaria>Davos. Lots of folks recommended train travel only but that just isn't appealing to us. We like to go where and when we want and trains still take up a lot of time getting to and waiting around train stations. My husband always has to be places early so there always has to be a big plan to get somewhere in plenty of time. We enjoyed the scenery as we drove and we were able to stop exactly where we felt like stopping.

Now, granted, this was not our first time driving in Europe (we have rented cars on 8 trips) but everybody has a first time and it isn't THAT hard. We don't speak any languages other than English and have not had problems.

In your guidebooks you will find helpful driving hints and after a very short time you will be cruising along fine. We have gotten briefly lost a time or two but since we are on vacation it has not mattered much. I would say our worst driving issues were driving into bigger cities (Prague just after the floods, and Budapest come to mind) and not knowing EXACTLY where our hotel was located. Now we always have exact driving directions to our accommodations wherever they are, it make life much easier.

If you can drive from Green Bay to the airport in Chicago you can drive any place on your itinerary. We did leave the car in the Lauterbrunnen parking structure while in the BO but big deal, it didn't cost that much in the big scheme of a 16 day trip.

I might suggest, though, that you may not need the car upon arrival in Munich. I would think the day trip to Salzburg would be easily doable by public transport because you would really be spending the day in Salzburg itself. Additionally, if I recall correctly you need a vignette or sticker to drive on Austrian roads. Your Swiss rental car may not have it.

Also, you really could go from Zurich to BO and then on to Bern before getting the car. It wouldn't be that much use to you before Bern and the Swiss trains are really fantastic. Bern is the capital of Switzerland so I suspect you can get an automatic car there with no problem and start the driving portion of your trip.

Go PACK Go!

We have stayed in Murren and loved it. To step out on your balcony and have a snow-covered crag right there is priceless. Please do not stay in Gimmelwald. There is nothing there. If you are in Murren, walk down the road and take a look at Gimmelwald. That is enough.
The 'headache' of the mountain lifts! They are amazing, like an e-ticket ride (if you are old enough to remember that expression.) You have some decisions to make but in the end, whatever you do will work out fine. It is amazing country. Enjoy! CJ

Take Rick Steves' advice with a grain of salt. I agree that staying in Mürren is a very good idea, avoid Gimmelwald!

I don't see - given your itinerary - where in Switzerland a car would make sense. Would you really want to see TWO castles in one day? (Chillon and Gruyeres) Also, why staying in Lausanne? It's a city, not really special - I'd stay in Vevey or Montreux, especially since you plan to see Chillon and Montreux.

Having a car in the BO doesn't make any sense (especially with what you plan to do). For excursions to cities like Lucerne, Bern it is not of any use. Driving in the cities is manageable, but why bother? The old towns are almost completely pedestrian zones and parking fees are prohibitive. Train stations are right at the edge of the old towns.

If you really want to rent a car then do it for the German portion of your trip in Freiburg.

I am always wondering why people think the Romantic Road is romantic and a leisure drive. The towns along the road are romantic (mostly) but the road itself is a major road with quite a lot of traffic and the drive is not enjoyable at all. You'd make more of the day if you'd drive the Autobahn to Füssen, maybe do a quick side excursion to a town along the route and explore this one (Dinkelsbühl e.g.).

I.

HappyCheeseHead, you said it (of the reason to have a car) better than I did . I completely agree with swandave2000 on not driving in Lake Geneva. I will look into getting the car from Lausanne to drive to Germany. We do plan to return the car once we arrive in Munchen, can take train to Salzburg.

Love Ingo's suggestion for staying at Vevey or Montreux.

I am sold on staying at Murren as well (one small logistics question: plan to do laundry while in BO, probably in Lauterbrunnen. Do they have taxi running from Murren to Lauterbrunnen? I suppose we can use the same transportation as going up to Murren from Lauterbrunnen).

What about staying at Reutte (again per Rick Steves' recommendation) instead of Fussen? Reutte is in Austria road, I might run into this sticker issue. For Bavaria, which place would you pick for staying? I will also have to look into this drop charge thing.

Hi GB-

There wouldn't be a taxi from Murren to Lauterbrunnen - no cars like that are allowed in Murren :)

We stayed in Wengen ourselves and there was a small 2 washer/2 dryer laundromat there we did a couple of loads. I don't know about laundry in Murren or Lauterbrunnen. Where are you staying? Some apts/condos might even have a washer.

I do believe the Austrian sticker is for driving the major roads in Austria. We dipped down into Austria and actually drove that road through Reutte when we went from the Linderhof to Hohenschwangau and Neuschwanstein and you don't need the sticker there on that little road. We were able to purchase a cheaper corridor pass when we used the major highway along the east side of the Bodensee (far west Austria). If that is the only time you are driving in Austria you should be ok.

To be clear, if the only driving you are doing is that little dip into Austria around Reutte you are ok without the sticker.

By the way, since you are going that way anyway, we thought Solothurn was a charming stop. Good Garage parking just outside the city walls and a lovely little town inside.

You should definitely investigate the drop-off charge in München (Germany) for a car rented in Switzerland. I suspect it is very costly.

Solothurn is one of my favourites. But then again, there are so many all over Switzerland ... LOL

I am pretty sure you can do laundry in Mürren. Ask the tourist office.

Do not drive on the Autobahn into Austria, not even for a mile or so! They just wait for someone doing this (and often succeed) to fine them a huge amount of money. Has happened too often. But of course you can drive on minor roads from Germany into Austria, also to Reutte. Seriously, staying in Reutte instead of Füssen does not really make sense IMO. Füssen does have a nice small old town with some sights itself, so why bother? I guess it all depends on finding decent, inexpensive accommodatin, right?

Our trip is getting closer (leaving Aug 11)! A couple of final questions:
1) car seat for kids 12 and under. Fodors book states kids 12 under do NOT need a car seat if he is over 59 inches tall. My 10 year old is 59 1/2. So I figure I am ok without the car seat. But Rick Steves' only mentions the age not the height. What is the exact requirments for kids riding in car without car seats? I asked the rental company, they only cited the age limit, but not the height limit.
2) We won't get a swiss pass, since we are driving, so no discount for lifts, etc. Rick Steves book mentioned purchasing a Half-Fare Travel card (110SF) which will give me 50% on most trains, buses, mountain lifts, boats rides, etc. Is that a good deal? We will be visiting Berner Oberland, Luzern, and Lake Geneva. Lifts to Junfraujoch and Shilthorn are expensive. What kind of passes are the most economic for my situation?

2) As you're mostly driving you should buy the Half Fare Card for one month. It will give you 50% reduction on the fares for Jungfraujoch, Schilthorn, Pilatus, steam boats etc. With Jungfraujoch and Schilthorn trips alone that Card pays off.

Don't know about the kids, though.

1) How tall is 59 1/2 inches in cm exactly? Because the limit is of course 150 cm. As far as I know 150 cm are 59.06 inches. So your son doesn't need a special seat.

Half-fare Carad is per person, right?

Yes, Pal. The Half Fare Card is 110 CHF per person.

thank you Ingo! that is what I thought but was not sure.