Katiebug

I'm in the early stages of planning a trip to Europe in May/June '04 for my husband and me. At this point, most everything is flexible, aside from the approx. time of year & approx. # of days that we can allow "(17 - 19, incl. travel days). We have narrowed our favorite destinations down to England, France & Italy. Admittedly, we may need to narrow down further, depending on what I hear from all of you (if any destination must be cut, it would be Italy). We do not speak either French or Italian, but will work on the helpful, polite phrases prior to going.

We are in our early 40's, & have no children. We want to see so much, but don't want to rush. We lead very busy lives @ home, & love to relax on vacation, w/ lots of romance, adventure & fun. We're not into night clubs. Pubs would be more our style, or lingering over a great dinner & a great bottle of wine, or dinner & a show, or something of the like (and we WILL be including the Moulin Rouge, because, well, because we want to!). We also love wines, quaint towns & some shopping (mostly outside of the cities). About once a week, when we eat out @ home in N. California, we spend an average of appx. $100.00 including wine. (We're open to more of these during our trip, in addition to good casual dinners.) We're not at all into typical fast-food. A loaf of bread, cheese, wine & some fruit sounds awesome, for an inexpensive lunch or dinner, as does a small cafe', & something simple for b-fasts, too.

My husband has never been to Europe. I went to England (stayed w/ a friend in the Oxfordshire/E. Hanney area) 20 years ago for one week. We went to pubs, Stonehenge, Salisbury Cathedral, the Cotswolds, also went to Windsor Castle & the town of Windsor, Oxford, and on my last day, we "did London" (ha!) in about 5 hours (on foot) "seeing" major landmarks such as Big Ben, Parliament (the outside of the bldg.), Trafalgar Square, Buckingham Palace (main gates & front), Harrod's, walked past Hyde Park, I believe, & walked out on a bridge over the Thames, then went back to East Hanney. Believe it or not, I forgot my camera, but borrowed his. None of the photos we took turned out. I adored England, & swore I'd be back. Now, it's 20 years later and it looks like I'm finally going to Europe again, & I'm really looking forward to experiencing it with more maturity & appreciation for what I saw before, but also, sights I never visited, & this time, with my Honey! In addition, we'd like to include spontaneous, unplanned fun.

OK, so, that said, here's what we'd *like* to do (not necessarily in this order, & not necessarily limited to this list either). I'd love to hear your feedback.

England

London: Buckingham Palace, Big Ben, Trafalgar Square, Crown Jewels, Tower of London.
Windsor: The castle & the town.
Stonehenge (Astral tour! Yes!!)
Crop Circles would be fun
Pubs
Liverpool (Magical Mystery tour)

France

Paris: Eiffel Tower, The Leuve (highlights only), Latin Quarter, Evening cruise on the Siene (sp?) and anything else that is wonderful that we can fit in without feeling cramped or rushed.
Moulin Rouge
Champagne Cave(s) (Veuve Cliquot?)
Wineries
Provence (where?)

Italy

Tuscany (where?)
Venice (room w/ a balcony on the canal?)

What does this sound like? How should we split time up? Do I need to bump anything? (Sniff-sniff) Whad does 6 nights in England, 7 in France 5-6 in Italy sound like, OR, ???

I can't imagine that I've left anything out (in fact, I've risked being wordy because I see so many responses to postings for itineraries saying "you didn't give us enough info!&quot. Nevertheless, I could have forgotten something, so please let me know if I did, and forgive me for talking too much. (What can I say, I'm excited & want to plan a great trip.)

Thanks in advance.

Michael

I would do only two countries: England and France, or England and Italy. Or if you do all three, go by plane and only to large cities on the continent: Paris, Venice, Rome.

vcl

Katiebug:

Can you do three countries in 17 - 19 days, certainly. Is it advisable, probably not.

First thing to check is airfare -- how much more is it going to cost you to add Italy to England and France? Would the money better be spent adding a little more luxury to your stays in two countries.

Second thing to consider is how much time do you want to spend on the road? At best, going from one country to the next will eat up the better part of a day. And you'll be hauling luggage.

Now for the fun part. It won't be unreasonable for you to expect good weather, so plan to take advantage of the great outdoors. Stop in local markets and get the makings of a picnic and eat lunch in a park every day you can. Don't worry about breakfast, your hotel rate usually includes at least coffee, juice and rolls in the morning.

Build in time for serendipity. If you get fascinated by the street performers in Covent Garden, well, the cruise on the Thames will be running tomorrow as well, or the next time you go to London. Savor what you see, don't obsess about what you're missing.

Most important, remember there is always a next time -- and it doesn't have to be 20 years away.

Katiebug

Thanks, Michael & vcl, you've convinced us. We'll go with England & France. Now, what about places to stay? If we want something in a good location in Paris, quaint, not too "over the top," romantic, nice & within walking distance from as much as possible (we'd love a view of the Eiffer Tower), what would we expect in terms of cost of lodging? Also, what about the same in Provance, London & Liverpool?

Thanks so much for the help.

Katiebug

P.S. For example, in San Francisco, we'll find a "European style inn" for around $100 + per night. However, what would we see for, say $150 - $200.? Do we need to go a bit higher, or could we get something that fits the bill for less?

Anonymous

Your England itinerary looks do-able: The Crown Jewels are AT the Tower of London -- just get there when they open, and go there first to beat the crowds. Buckingham Palace is open to visitors only when the Royals are away on summer vacation, in August and September so you'll be doing a walk-by there.

May/June is rather early for crop circles, as they're cut into tall grain crops. When we took the Astral Travels Inner Circle tour, our driver took a side-trip to show us some, but that was in August.

I believe you can write ahead for an insider's tour of Big Ben, and you might do Liverpool as a day trip, but someone with more expertise will have to confirm these.

Katiebug

Are you trying to tell me alians are seasonal?!

Anyone have any comments on champagne caves, wineries and/or where to go in Provence?

(And please don't tell me champagne is also not in season in May/June!)

TuckH

Katie, I simply fail to understand why you feel compelled to pick up and leave not just a place, but a whole country, after a mere few days there. Why?

Please give serious thought to the idea of spending ALL of your 17-19 days in England (or France). There will be a next year, right?

I'm a strong advocate for having a tight focus and doing something well and thoroughly, quality and not quantity. I'd rather not do something at all than do it superficially.

You say you want to see so much (don't we all!), but don't want to rush. Well, sorry to say, that's what you'll be doing. Please slow down and enjoy it!

Maira

This is all a draft at this point, so let's start with a baseline: 1) England and France, 2) 17-20 days, 3) mix of historical sights/ leisure activities, 4)drive? train?

This is a preliminary thought: Fly into London, explore the southwestern English region (train/tours/ rental car), ferry/cross over to Cherbourg, rent a car, explore the beautiful Normandy Region (strongly recommend Deauville, Trouville, Honfleur, Mt. St. Michel), head out to Paris for sightseeing and later departure. This suggestion considers regions that fit your description of travel preferences and sightseeing style. Your description was really helpful. Have a great time planning!

Katiebug

TuckH - It's merely a difference in the way two people look at an opportunity. I'd rather have loved a little than not at all, as they say. Although I only had one 7 day whirlwind trip through England 20 years ago, I loved every second of it and have had 20 years of memories. Different strokes for different folks. That's why it's so great to get opinions from a lot of posters - everyone has great considerations that get people to think about what they really want. And what we really want is to visit *both* England and France. If the trip gets too rushed, I guarantee you, we'll slow down & smell the roses (or pastries!). So, thank you for your concerns, I appreciate your advise. Now let's move on.

Maria - Thank you, also. I've been thinking we're going to take the Chunnel to France. I hadn't thought about doing Paris last... I don't know if I can wait "that long" to get there! But, as I said above, it's certainly something to consider. Also, after I get back from a weekend away, I'll open the atlas back up to look at the Normandy region & do additional research.

This is so exciting!!! I think I'm probably going to pop from so much anticipation, by the time we arrive in Europe!

mclaurie

Hi Katie,

I'm going to spend some time posting a reply and reopen the issue of itinerary based on what you've already said. Rather than think about countries, think about stops. It's perfectly possible to spend 19 days in 4-5 places. Why limit countries (ie France vs Italy) And given the fact that you live on the west coast & it's taken you 20 yrs to get back to Europe, I understand wanting to "do it all." Many Fodorites are very frequent travelers & like to "DO" an area completely. That's not necessarily your style.

So...I'll make an outrageous suggestion. Skip London. You've already been there. It doesn't have the romance of a small place AND it's VERY expensive. Places outside London are much less expensive for both lodging & food. If you want to start the trip in English (a good idea) fly into London but spend your time in England exploring places you haven't been (like Liverpool and the north) OR look into flying into Manchester or Birmingham so you can do your Liverpool tour.
Then maybe do Paris & one other French stop and 1 or 2 stops in Italy.

With the current exchange rates it will be next to impossible to find nice lodging in any major city for $100/night (that's about 60-65 GBP in England or 70-80 euros In France/Italy I think). It's not impossible to find that in smaller towns though which sounds like what you'd prefer anyway.

So step 1, set a budget and set priorities. Some people like to sleep cheap & eat well. Others like luxury accomodation but eat small & cheap. Or splurge in one place (Paris?) & conserve elsewhere. There are lots of great budget travel books. You can even do a text search here for the ones people like.
Step 2 decide if you're prepared to do driving at all or if you want to use public transport. This will affect where you go. If public transport, it's got to have a train station.
Step 3 start reading EVERYTHING on this website. Read the Fodor's miniguides for the areas you're considering. Then start doing text searches on the message board for the places that interest you. A good way to do text searches is, for example, type France AND wine tours in the text search above. Read previous threads. Also do Google web searches. There's so much info on the web.
Step 4 Once you've decided on an itinerary, start pricing it out. Here's some basic info
>There are discount airlines that fly intereurope. Easyjet.com, ryanair.com, bmi.com are a few.
>Train travel between cities can often be faster because you're flying city center to city center-but it's sometimes more expensive than flying
>Autoeurope.com is a prefered car rental booker on this site
>venere.com is a good place to search hotels but there are tons of others. There's one very large thread about favorite URLs - look for it.

Bottom line, based on what you've told us (likes, previous experience, budget isuues etc.)I'd do 1 stop in England 2-3 days, 4 days in Paris, 1 stop in Provence 3 days with a base & drive around each day, the balance in Italy (a smallish town in Tuscany with a day trip to Florence) and end in Venice.

Hope this helps.

Katiebug

mclaurie - Thanks so much (although, I must confess, all these great ideas are taking me from nearly decided to totally up in the air!)

A couple of things:
1. We *are* willing to drive in England (not France or Italy).
2. Our budget will be (give or take a few $, $10K-ish for the trip (including air, lodging, etc.). So, to clarify, I was just getting an idea of what a smallish, "European style" hotel might be in London. We'll spend what we need to spend to be comfortable & well located, but not over the top. I don't want to put it all into the lodging (as we usually do if we're totally vegging on a vacation).
3. Thanks so much for acknowledging the "do the area completely" theory vs. what we have chosen. I didn't think my agenda was *too* far off.
4. Althought *I* have been to London (for 5 hours), my husband hasn't, so I really don't want to bump it.

Keep 'em coming! I'm loving the confusion! (Really!)

RonZ

I Maira's suggestion appeals to you, I can recommend the Manoir du Butin in Honfleur. This is a charming 10 room country inn with a marvelous restaurant.

If you would wish to avoid driving into Paris, one alternative of several is to stop in Rouen and then take the train.

By the way, if you are near SF, you must try the restaurant Jeanne d'Arc [www.hotelcornell.com].

gingersnap

Some informatin on Paris....my husband and I spent a week in Paris a few years ago and planned everything on the internet....I have a friend who lived in Paris for 5 years and she gave me some good info as well.....we stayed at the most charming and convenient hotel in the heart of Saint-Germain-des-Pres..Hotel Le Regent, 61, rue Dauphine 75006 Paris...between the Odeon theater and the Seine, close to Notre Dame Cathederal, and Louvre..you can find pictures at www.paris.com or under Google.com.....a sweet girl named Sandrine worked at the front desk and was helpful..you can have a light breakfast(prepared by Victoria, another charming girl) in the little bistro at the hotel..this is a very safe part of Paris and within walking distance to many attractions, also close to Odeon Metro station...we took in all the sights in the city ...one suggestion my friend made was to go to the Lido on the Champs Elysses (for dinner and show...it was great....she said the Moulin Rouge was "tacky" and way too "touristy"...and it's in a bad part of the city....we did several day trips..one to Normandy (which Sandrine suggested)..it was wonderful and we had to most delicious dinner on this side trip at an old farm house (excellent wine included with meal)...also did a day trip to Claude Monet's home (Giverny) and gardens...beautiful and relaxing...also make a trip to Versailles palace and gardens..just so happened all the fountains with music were on the day we were there..take the Metro and the funicular to Sacre Coeur..and magnificent church that sits on the top of the hill overlooking picturesque Montmarte...outside of Paris...we had always heard how rude the people of Paris could be, but did not have one incidence of this while there....please don't forget the dinner cruise down the Seine...very romantic...have a "large" time...

Gretchen

Driving in France is a cinch. I would NEVER NEVER drive in England--it would be suicide for me and murder for the person I hit.

RonZ

To Katiebug...

Your last post wasn't up when I responded.

I can tell you that driving in France is very easy and a great way to see the country.

cparris

You could easily do England and France in that time span. I think driving in the country in France is as easy as the states...remember in England you drive on the other side. In fact my husband thought driving in France and even Italy was easier then in the states. You could spend say 6-7 nights in london and do a few day trips to the country...there are many day bus trips to stonehedge and bath which are nice. You could take a boat from london to Greenwich for an afternoon. This way you wouldn't need a car in England. You could also split it and spend 3 nights in london and 3-4 nights in some other area in England. (hotels are much less in the country then in London)THen you could either fly to Paris (there are some cheap airlines now) or take a train...You can then rent a car and drive in an area in France...such as Normandy and/or the Loire Valley for a week and then spend the last 5 days in Paris, flying out of Paris.(or going back to London to fly home) If you wanted to do Provence instead, you could take the train from Paris to Provence and rent a car there for a week.

Katiebug

You guys are all awesome. PLEASE, keep going. I'm going away for the weekend (leaving right now), but will check everything (and respond) when I return.

Have a great weekend & "talk" to you soon.

mclaurie

I too am confused about why you'd drive in England on the wrong side but not in France or Italy. Anyway, not important at this stage.

Ok budget sounds set &amp; OK. London's a yes. So you start making some decisions. Start with England. You can see everything you mentioned in London <b>from the outside</b> in a day on the hop on hop off bus. To GO to the Tower &amp; see the crown jewels &amp; take a Beefeater tour-3-4 hrs. You can see Stonhenge as a half day trip from London or attach another destination to Stonhenge (like Bath and/or Cotswolds) as a full day trip from London OR leave London, drive &amp; go to Cotswolds, Bath or somewhere in between &amp; see Stonehenge on your own. There's a way to go to the &quot;inner circle&quot; at night. Someone's posted about it here. Do a text search for Stonehenge AND inner circle.

Is that enough in London for just a taste? Theater maybe? Set up the England part first &amp; then move on.

BTW, England stays light very late at that time (9-10pm) of year so you'll be able to do much more than in other seasons. Other issues. Is Liverpool a must? If yes, check here for info. Type Liverpool AND tours in the text search &amp; see what comes up. I've never been.

Do you want to consider bidding on Priceline for a London hotel which many people here swear by? That is a way to get a decent room in London for around $100/night. (Don't try it for Paris, though. Most Priceline hotels lack charm or are poorly located).Do you want to check into packages (ie air + hotel). Any of the airlines have them. If you start to get overwhelmed, you COULD use a travel agent.

OK. Happy planning!

Michael

If you like Maira's suggestion, type Normandy in the search box. It will give you all the postings refering to Normandy.