Gosh flanneruk - that sounds a little like the justification of slavery - rescue the poor wretches from the dark depths of Africa. I am sure you weren't justifying imperialism.

Now, if the Brits had intentionally hooked thousands of Chinese on opium, that would be a different story....

What? Oh. Never mind.

Back to the flag thing - I thought Canadians travelling in Europe, often teens or young adults, in the '60s/70s hitchhiking days, started sewing a flag to their backpacks during the Vietnam war. It wasn't fair to blame Americans travelling in Europe for the war, of course, but Canadians thought (or maybe it was their mothers) it would keep them safer.

I've found on my travels that Europeans and Brits can't tell a Canadian accent from an American one and the first guess I get is always American so we wear little flag pins sometimes although my son, who lives in Asia, hates it for some reason.

And I, too, know one American who has "posed" as a Canuck.

I just want to address the statement made that President Bush "started a war in Iraq" as this is only partly true. Remember, that the US Congress approved his actions, and so did the UN. To blame our troubles in the Middle East on one man implies that the US system of government can be manipulated so easily and worst, that the people (along with Congress and the Judicial branch) did not do anything about it. There is plenty of blame to go around for our current troubles in Iraq, and Bush is just one in a long list.

Also, I think there is much passion and discussion about US politics even from people who do not live in the US because it is a highly visible country. Our foreign policy affects many countries and many people in the globe so I think its natural for many to have strong feelings about the US one way or the other. I do agree, its rude but I can also understand where the interest stems from.

Well said, Eric. Being an American isn't temporary. Politics are.

I was not intending to disparage anyone who holds the opinion I ascribed to the 'cavers', though I think a simple "sorry you feel that way" is a sufficient resopnse. Even when I may privately agree with something being said, I'm simply not going to join in bashing my country when overseas. Doing so is disrespectful to all who have sacrified so that we can enjoy the abundant privledges of being an American.

I don't want to drift into political discussion, but feel a need to reply to Kealoha, to disagree and to agree.

First, the UN did not approve the action in Iraq. That's the disagreeing done.

Second, like many people outside the US, I feel an entitlement to comment on US politics insofar as they affect people outside the US -- essentially foreign policy. That's the agreeing done (at least, I think Kealoha and I agree on that).

I never blame any individual US citizen for the actions of the US government; that would be unfair.

I do not understand the point of view that expressing one's political views while overseas is bashing one's country any more than I understand the point that expressing one's political views at home is being unpatriotic, even when such views might be a minority position.

This sounds a little too much like "love it or leave it", and I never understood that either.

One of the many things I love about my country is the right I have to agree or disagree with any political position in public. Expressing disagreement with any particular point of view is not bashing the country, it is celebrating it.

I do agree with the last poster, but I also try to avoid political discussions with people I hardly know who I happen to meet on a holiday. I am on vacation and I leave the US politics behind to enjoy the food, wine, historical sites, entertainment, museums, etc.

Nikki: I love the middle ground. Somewhere we can all get part of what we want without distroying the whole World, country whatever. All I'm saying is the country is split down the middle. If you walk into a room and say, I hate Bush, half the people will be up in arms. Why do that????

Of course on any given day it could be less ahhahahhahahha.

Peace

>Remember, that the US Congress approved his actions, and so did the UN.<

If this is in reference to the invasion of Iraq, it is only 1/2 true.

The UN did not approve.

((I))

Hi GSteed, I personally do not know any USA citizens that dislike being identified as Americans in Europe. And I sure know a lot of people and most of them travel to Europe from time to time.

I hate Bush! Half the forum is up in arms :)

I teach adult immigrants who have come to this country (U.S.) and want to learn to pronounce American English. This past semester I asked each to tell the class what he/she would recommend to go see in their native country if one were a tourist. A few students gave usual tourist information: beaches, mountains, great cities, etc. But a few told of how scared they are either of going back to their country (dictator/ruthless), or how rude the Chinese are towards those Chinese who now live in America and come back to visit China, etc. I was, naively, surprised at the negativity. "Don't go to my country. It's a very bad place." But again, these adults had come here to live or work, not stayed where they were born. So they're happy to be in America. The negative comments were mostly NOT from the Europeans in the class (except for one woman from Bulgaria.).

Wonder what comments would be made on the Asian or African forum with regard to this question.

In Europe: If it came up, I would proably make my usual disgusted face in relation to The President, but I would also cut the conversation short. This is a vacation! And European governments are far from perfect!

P.S. I'm from NYC. When we tell people we're from NYC - they usually light up, as in "Wow". Got lots of sympathy after 9/11. I'm also Jewish and do not volunteer that information. (But, who goes around volunteering information about their religion, anyway? If asked, of course I would state it proudly. Although, quite frankly, I'm more stressed at others' possible response to that, than any negative verbal response to being American. Hard to explain the gut feeling/fear, perhaps, unless you're Jewish.)

I personally would never be rude to another person from another country, just because I didn't agree with their leader. People are individuals.

While I am happy to be an American, and like the idea of representing my fellow countrymen (and women) well, there were actually two times where I either denied being American or wanted to.

The first was about ten years ago in Prague and I was with an American friend and an English friend, and out of no where, late one night as we were returning to our b & b, a total stranger starting asking us all sorts of questions, including our nationality. I believe it was I who said "English." This was a gut response (and not entirely untrue), mainly out of some trepidation about this character and his motives. The situation was that he had been turned out of his room by his companion and wanted help or advice or something. Very sketchy, don't remember exactly.

The other time was last spring, at an internet cafe in Zurich near the train station. I was making a phone call home to the U.S., and, given what I perceived to be the nationalities of the other people there, I felt very uncomfortable announcing to the whole place (as I was forced to do) where I was calling.

So neither of these situations were out of shame, but self-preservation. As others have said, some people in the world are seeking out Americans to target for violence.

It's the same reason, as others have noted, I do not advertise that I'm Jewish. There's no reason to look for trouble...

Padraig, and Ira, thanks for the correction. I will need to check my info.

Padraig and Ira are right. Right before the war, the UN voted for yet another resolution -- that made 12 or 14 since 1991?

But for going to war, France, Germany, and Russia would not back an invasion into Iraq. It was found out later after the invasion, that the three of them were in bed with Saddam. Mucho financial interests in conflict with the original UN sanctions, not to mention all the scandals in the food for oil program. ((b))

Budman's post gives us the answer to the original question in this thread.

I raise my glass to you, Budman! ((d))

(But, it will have to be a martini, since I can't stand beer.)

and I to Bud with my Vin.

Padraig, I don't think my post answered the original question. I was just adding to the record.

I think that the USA citizens who dislike being identified as Americans in Europe are part of the "blame America first" crowd. I don't know what they are ashamed about. In the years that I've been living/traveling in Europe, I've never hid my identity and I've never been mistreated because of my identity. They love my money, what little I have. :-) ((b))