lincasnova,

One of the reasons I posted the news article about rampant crime against tourists in from 1985 -- yes, you read that right, 1985, more than 20 years ago -- is to disprove the notion that "the hoards of professional theives that have invaded spain in the last ten years has tilted the scales." Of course you have immigrant thieves (why not in a country that does so little to stop thievery?) But the problem is Spanish to the core.

To post as bob the navigator did (and it's not the first time I read such posts, not only about Spain but Italy, where I live) that "I'm told it's all immigrants" is just a myth that people should stop repeating, not only because it contributes to mindless immigrant bashing but because this kind of scapegoating has failed to address the problem in Spain at its roots for decades.

About the last people's word I would take on the causes of crime in Spain is the police force, who repeatedly roll their eyes and claim they can do nothing when tourists are robbed because it's "those immigrants from (fill in the blank, depending on which decade you're talking about and who is unpopular at the moment).

Politics aside, tourists need to be more careful than just being alert in "crowds," as the TDudette's original post demonstrates and others have elaborated. Thieves in Spain dress up and frequent the best hotels and restaurants, look for people wandering in historic alleyways or behind churches (or in churches!), etc etc.

Just my two cents..

While I cannot comment on the judicial system and will take linda's word for it, I think that the geographical proximity of both Spain and Italy to Africa has something to do with the fact that both countries get more illegal immigrants than others. I doubt that anyone setting sail in a nutshell in Northern Africa would go to Ireland or Denmark even if the judicial system was even more lenient.

If you are worried about flat tires (either fake or real accidents), get a can of spray that inflates the flat tire in seconds.
If you can still drive, try to get near any settlement or house (if possible). If someone approaches the car, remain inside, tell them that you do not need help since roadside assistance of the rental car company will come to change tires. Have a cell phone to be able to call the company. If those friendly people trying to "help" you do not leave, call the police. Emergency number across all EU countries is 112. Remain inside the car.

No matter who is doing the thieving, let's be sure to remind car-rental drivers about this.

Oh, insult to injury, the car rental company tried to charge my friends for the tire even though they had the company's insurance!

I think there are some exclusions in rental contracts on things like flat tires, aren't there..?

just one excerpt to back up opinion from an article about how shop owners have asked congress to increase the punishment for robbery, and to consider the criminals' previous acts also when sentencing.

."..Además dijeron que el 70% de los detenidos son extranjeros y consideran que España es uno de los países que menos castiga estos delitos y que da más facilidades a las personas procedentes de otros países."

This also mentions that "over 70% of the arrested are foreigners. spain is one of the most lenient countries in punishment and also gives maximum facilities to those who enter from abroad."

It's a good reminder also that crooks do not necessarily look like the sterotype of a thug. For example, pickpockets in cities who may be very stylishly/well-dressed.

I have no opinions on whether such crime as been increasing or not in Spain, as I haven't read up on that...

however, as to how anyone could prevent such a crime. Obviously, one should never leave valuable items on the seat of their car with the doors unlocked, when they leave the car. I don't know why anyone does such foolish things, but they do. I never leave my car doors unlocked when I get out, if there is anything in the car, even to pump gas -- anywhere. I live in a big city so this is second nature and obvious to me, but I think I'm also just a cautious person and have probably always done that, even when I was much younger and in my home town, which isn't a big city. It just seems obvious to me, but I read stories in the paper occasionally about people getting things stolen out of their car while they are pumping gas or going into a convenience store, etc., because they don't lock the doors.

If these people hadn't left items in their front seat with an unlocked door, it might not have happened as a lot of thieves do not want to get into crimes with guns or violence, and are looking for easy ways to steal things nonviolently.

"I live in a big city so this is second nature and obvious to me"


agree.
In my big city I would do the same ( I also watch my purse ,and late at night, my back).
When people travel they often get flustered : language, jet lag, foreign roads ( car trouble must be a real bummer).
It is not hard to let your guard down.

Probably the best study of who is responsible for crime increases in Spain was done around 2006, and I don't have the link, but here are the salient points:

One has to be careful about asserting that because some group gets *arrested* more often than another group, that proves something.

What the study found is that while immigrant male youths were arrested in greater numbers than native Spaniards between (roughly) 1990 and 2006, the number of crimes committed by native Spaniards increased to the point the figures cancelled each other out. (Or put another way, very simplistically, while 1,000 immigrant youths were arrested for committing 1,000 crimes, 500 native Spaniards had been arrested and charged with committing two crimes each.)

During a time of increased immigrant crime, native Spaniards have been committing more crimes per individual.

More worrisome, the crimes committed by Spaniards tended more often to be crimes against persons, rather than crimes dealing with property or rule-breaking.

ALWAYS TO BE REMEMBERED: Recent immigrants always tend to commit FEWER crimes that natives for fear of deportation.

Also what the study found is that, universally, most street crimes are committed by males between the ages of 20 and 30. When countries import young men for temporary labor, they run the risk of spiking crime if they do not offer permanent employment to the young men. That is to say, while recently immigrated young men will be careful not to break the law, once they stay for a while, and if they are at the bottom of the job heap, chances are higher they will turn to crime.

Despite the fact that common blather in Spain is that "South Americans are the thieves," the studies found that most often it was immigrants from Africa who had broken the law. And far and away the biggest "immigrant" problem facing Spain is the freedom with which international organized crime operates along its extensive coast lines.

Immigrant-bashing is common and popular, and it's no surprise that native police and shopkeepers join in. But it doesn't make it true that immigrants steal more or more often than native Spaniards. Just that native Spaniards are quicker to blame immigrants and quicker to proscribe overkill punishments -- and politicians like to go along.

"I think there are some exclusions in rental contracts on things like flat tires, aren't there..?"

Travelnut, it has been my experience with rental cars that glass, tires and the underside of the car are not covered by insurance.

A well dressed couple tried the map scam with us on the bus in Rome. About that time I had had it with walking and was hungry and hot and it was crowded. She kept wanting me to look at her map - which was well used so you know she knew where she was going. I ignored her. When I wouldn't respond she asked if I speak English. I said yes and go find someone else. I was quite rude. They left me and went down further on the bus to my sister and she recognized what they wanted to do and kept her hand right on her purse and out of their reach. The next stop they both hopped off like they had been doing that for years.

So don't fall for the map scam.

Nice to read a thread for a change where the innocent victims aren't accused of being "morons", "naive", "stupid", "complicit", etc. This stuff can happen to anyone. Let your guard down for just one moment and....

In 1984 my friend and I (two females) travelled to Spain. Our very first night in Madrid a gang of young men jumped out of an alley and pulled out knives to encourage us to give them our pocketbooks. We knew we were very close to a busy street and ran for it. We got away, and two guardian angels walked us back to our hotel. We had read the warnings about crime in Seville and Barcelona but no warnings about Madrid. We rented our car and had no more bad experiences, but we learned a valuable lesson. For at the time, two unescorted women were fair game for robbing, getting hit on etc. We took cabs when we went out in the evening. I guess my point is this was 1984. These guys were Spanish. I love the country, but one needs to be very careful there. It is probably not the immigrants causing much of the problem.