My Dogs want to go and live in France.
Sep 12th, 2009, 07:42 PM
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My Dogs want to go and live in France.
I want to take my dogs back to France with me, I don't want them to go Cargo, I think they are small enough to travel in the same bag if I break the journey from DFW in ORD or IAD over night, that way not so much air time.
Any experienced doggy travelers or owners to tell me of their recent experiences please?.
Any experienced doggy travelers or owners to tell me of their recent experiences please?.
Sep 12th, 2009, 09:15 PM
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Hello! I have brought my dogs to Europe several times, but I must emphasize that that they are very good travelers (thy sleep the whole time on the plane, and do not make a sound) and I had no other choice other than to take them with me when I travel.
First thing that is very important, is which airline you select. I choose to only fly with Lufthansa or Swiss airlines because they allow you bring your pets with you in the cabin (Swiss airline has a $250 one-way per dog in cabin fee, so it would be $500 roundtrip per dog -- this is NOT CHEAP and please be aware of this, unless if cost/money is not an issue to you).
DO NOT put your dogs in cargo. And do not fly United. Last year I made the mistake of allowing one of my dogs to fly cargo via United from Brussels to Washington Dulles (IAD) -- my dog almost died from bleeding to death. Something poked her while she was in the cage and it nearly severed one of her toes. When she came out of the cargo, she was bleeding and the customs officers at Dulles in DC did not let me take her out until after I've passed through customs check (that took nearly an hour with all the passengers and the lines). So, the whole time she was bleeding and you can imagine as a pet owner how devasted and angry I was.
In DC, I had to take my injured dog to the vet for emergency surgery, which costed me nearly $500. And luckily, I had family to stay with in DC, because my dog's injury made me miss my connecting flight to LAX since I had to rush my dog to the veterinarian.
It took me almost 8 months to sort out the issue with United and get reimbursed for the cost of the surgery. The bottom line is, do not put your dog in cargo -- it is just a very cruel experience for pets and really, animals should not be put in any part of the plane where they are unsupervised. It is NOT safe.
As for the airline, the reason I would not recommend United is because of their attitude to me throughout my whole ordeal with my injured dog. They acted like it's the crew's fault at the airport, and not the airline. It really doesn't matter whose fault it is, what matters is that we had an injured dog that was the result of flying in cargo with their airline.
The reason I recommend Lufthansa and Swiss is because I've flown on both of them, and they allow pets in cabin. They generally have better service overall. However, their policy says that only ONE dog can travel in ONE bag in the cabin. So, it's best if you travel with a friend or family member, and each of you take a dog as a carry-on.
Second, make sure they wear their collars, ID tags, and are microchipped before they travel on the flight. DO NOT put them on any leash inside their pet carriers (but DO have the leash ready somewhere accessible in your carry-on bag, in case you need to take them out and need to walk them) because the leash might accidentally get wrapped around their legs and hurt them while they are inside the pet carrier. You cannot take your dogs out of the carrier while in transit on the plane. If the flight attendant catches you doing this, they might get really mad at you and give you a lecture (this is speaking from personal experience).
Third, be aware that there is a whole other process regarding paperwork for each of the dogs. You cannot just take your dogs overseas to Europe. Every country has a different quarantine requirement. For the European Union, there is no quarantine required for dogs coming from the U.S., HOWEVER -- You must bring them to the vet, have them get microchipped with an internationally-accepted brand of microchip (the US has different chips than the rest of the world, so be aware), pay for international health certificates, have the vet fill out an EU Form 998, take the form to an official at the state vet office to get a USDA stamp of endorsement within 10 days of travel (no earlier), and have copies of this form in every language of the countries where you plan to take your dog(s) to. It is complicated, time-consuming, and EXPENSIVE. In total considering all the associated costs, I've had to pay about $1,000 per dog just to take them with me to Europe.
Of course, you already know this process is complicated, right?
Please consider this before you bring your dogs overseas.
First thing that is very important, is which airline you select. I choose to only fly with Lufthansa or Swiss airlines because they allow you bring your pets with you in the cabin (Swiss airline has a $250 one-way per dog in cabin fee, so it would be $500 roundtrip per dog -- this is NOT CHEAP and please be aware of this, unless if cost/money is not an issue to you).
DO NOT put your dogs in cargo. And do not fly United. Last year I made the mistake of allowing one of my dogs to fly cargo via United from Brussels to Washington Dulles (IAD) -- my dog almost died from bleeding to death. Something poked her while she was in the cage and it nearly severed one of her toes. When she came out of the cargo, she was bleeding and the customs officers at Dulles in DC did not let me take her out until after I've passed through customs check (that took nearly an hour with all the passengers and the lines). So, the whole time she was bleeding and you can imagine as a pet owner how devasted and angry I was.
In DC, I had to take my injured dog to the vet for emergency surgery, which costed me nearly $500. And luckily, I had family to stay with in DC, because my dog's injury made me miss my connecting flight to LAX since I had to rush my dog to the veterinarian.
It took me almost 8 months to sort out the issue with United and get reimbursed for the cost of the surgery. The bottom line is, do not put your dog in cargo -- it is just a very cruel experience for pets and really, animals should not be put in any part of the plane where they are unsupervised. It is NOT safe.
As for the airline, the reason I would not recommend United is because of their attitude to me throughout my whole ordeal with my injured dog. They acted like it's the crew's fault at the airport, and not the airline. It really doesn't matter whose fault it is, what matters is that we had an injured dog that was the result of flying in cargo with their airline.
The reason I recommend Lufthansa and Swiss is because I've flown on both of them, and they allow pets in cabin. They generally have better service overall. However, their policy says that only ONE dog can travel in ONE bag in the cabin. So, it's best if you travel with a friend or family member, and each of you take a dog as a carry-on.
Second, make sure they wear their collars, ID tags, and are microchipped before they travel on the flight. DO NOT put them on any leash inside their pet carriers (but DO have the leash ready somewhere accessible in your carry-on bag, in case you need to take them out and need to walk them) because the leash might accidentally get wrapped around their legs and hurt them while they are inside the pet carrier. You cannot take your dogs out of the carrier while in transit on the plane. If the flight attendant catches you doing this, they might get really mad at you and give you a lecture (this is speaking from personal experience).
Third, be aware that there is a whole other process regarding paperwork for each of the dogs. You cannot just take your dogs overseas to Europe. Every country has a different quarantine requirement. For the European Union, there is no quarantine required for dogs coming from the U.S., HOWEVER -- You must bring them to the vet, have them get microchipped with an internationally-accepted brand of microchip (the US has different chips than the rest of the world, so be aware), pay for international health certificates, have the vet fill out an EU Form 998, take the form to an official at the state vet office to get a USDA stamp of endorsement within 10 days of travel (no earlier), and have copies of this form in every language of the countries where you plan to take your dog(s) to. It is complicated, time-consuming, and EXPENSIVE. In total considering all the associated costs, I've had to pay about $1,000 per dog just to take them with me to Europe.
Of course, you already know this process is complicated, right?
Please consider this before you bring your dogs overseas.
Sep 13th, 2009, 12:57 AM
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Your dogs must be chipped to be allowed into France - with a chip which can be read by European readers. As I understand it not all US chips can be.
They also need to be up to date on all their shots, including Rabies, which must be at least a month old on your date of travel.
Don't plan a route which involves going through the UK or you will have to fully comply with the PETS scheme.
Here is the USDA page on French regulations http://tinyurl.com/n86b8v but check elsewhere too.
If you are planning on living in southern France you must also protect your dogs from sandflies and ticks as they can get serious illnesses from these insects.
They also need to be up to date on all their shots, including Rabies, which must be at least a month old on your date of travel.
Don't plan a route which involves going through the UK or you will have to fully comply with the PETS scheme.
Here is the USDA page on French regulations http://tinyurl.com/n86b8v but check elsewhere too.
If you are planning on living in southern France you must also protect your dogs from sandflies and ticks as they can get serious illnesses from these insects.
Sep 13th, 2009, 03:28 AM
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Sounds like you will be living in France full time so I guess you do have to bite the bullet and get them here. I would not consider it if you are only going to be there short to mid-term i.e. less than 18 months. But, that's just my opinion because it's a hard trip for them.
Where are you located? We are in the SW, near St. Gaudens, about 50 minutes from Toulouse.
Where are you located? We are in the SW, near St. Gaudens, about 50 minutes from Toulouse.
Sep 13th, 2009, 04:20 AM
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Whether or not ANY airline INCLUDING Swiss and Lufthansa "allows" dogs into the cabin DEPENDS on the size of the dog and you have given few details as to how small your dogs actually are.
I would agree that unless you are moving permanently to France then the real title of your post should be: "<B>I</B> want my dogs to go to France with me."
I would agree that unless you are moving permanently to France then the real title of your post should be: "<B>I</B> want my dogs to go to France with me."
Sep 13th, 2009, 06:12 AM
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Yes, I agree with Dukey -- one of the most important things I forgot to mention is that in order for your dog to be able to travel with you in the cabin is the dog's size and weight. My dogs are only 6 lbs, so they travel with me in the cabin with no problems (Swiss airline requires that the pets in cabin must be less than 8 kgs including the pet carrier, and you cannot travel First or Business class if you have a pet in cabin).
Swiss Pet Policy:
http://www.swiss.com/web/en/services...s/animals.aspx
We don't know how big/small your dogs are, janfreeman, so most of the advice that I gave might be utterly useless for you regardless of the airline.
Swiss Pet Policy:
http://www.swiss.com/web/en/services...s/animals.aspx
We don't know how big/small your dogs are, janfreeman, so most of the advice that I gave might be utterly useless for you regardless of the airline.
Sep 13th, 2009, 06:37 AM
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The Swiss pet policy implies only taking a single dog, unless like nancicita's they are tiny and fit in one carrier - 8kg including carrier, which must fit under your seat means the dogs can't weigh more then 3kg each like nancicita's do.
Have you looked at which airlines allow dogs in the cabin for flights to France? Transiting through another country only complicates matters further, especially as the connecting airline may have different rules concerning animals in the cabin.
Have you looked at which airlines allow dogs in the cabin for flights to France? Transiting through another country only complicates matters further, especially as the connecting airline may have different rules concerning animals in the cabin.
Sep 13th, 2009, 06:44 AM
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What a tale of woe! I am glad you got your money back though.
Amsterdam (the city, not private companies who were never allowed to do this) stopped clamping cars a few years ago - because it was bad for tourism!
Amsterdam (the city, not private companies who were never allowed to do this) stopped clamping cars a few years ago - because it was bad for tourism!
Sep 13th, 2009, 08:58 AM
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Remeber the dog is one of your carryons. Even though they will generally charge you for the dog, it still counts as your "under the seat" item.
I flew to Paris with a woman who had a dog, she did it all the time and the dog was not an issue. (I didn't even realize he was there until we got off the plane and he was in the same row. It was just the two of us on the four seat row and the dog was great!)
I flew to Paris with a woman who had a dog, she did it all the time and the dog was not an issue. (I didn't even realize he was there until we got off the plane and he was in the same row. It was just the two of us on the four seat row and the dog was great!)
Sep 13th, 2009, 09:01 AM
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Well, I know dogs are not cats, but we brought 2 cats with us from Canada in 1994, and they had to go in the hold. Even the cats, who weren't fat, were too heavy (weight had to include the carrying case as well.)
We checked with our vet about the best way for them to handle this, which in their case meant no drugs, no food, and no water for a specific period of time before the flight.
They survived very well, despite being cooped up for several hours before we left (didn't want to lose them at the last minute), an international flight, more hours of waiting at the train station, and a 5 hour train ride. No ill effects from the trip in cargo.
We kept them in one night, the next day they had a look around, said 'where's lunch?' and proceeded to enjoy many years of French country life.
We checked with our vet about the best way for them to handle this, which in their case meant no drugs, no food, and no water for a specific period of time before the flight.
They survived very well, despite being cooped up for several hours before we left (didn't want to lose them at the last minute), an international flight, more hours of waiting at the train station, and a 5 hour train ride. No ill effects from the trip in cargo.
We kept them in one night, the next day they had a look around, said 'where's lunch?' and proceeded to enjoy many years of French country life.
Sep 13th, 2009, 11:48 AM
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Thank you so much for your detailed info, and that is certainly a heart wrenching storey. I can not imagine the horror and pain you and your dog suffered. I have mine micro chipped, I also have a reader. I know it is a pain to travel with pets well the compliance with the rules and regs you are at the mercy of only how much the employee knows, and when I am back in Europe will get them a passport. I was going via England, but changed that idea. I think a break in DC will be to their advantage. Lufty partners with United, that is scarey, if I stop over in either US city I would most likely be flying there via United. So I guess it is multi city, multi carrier tickets. My kids are a 3 1/3 lb Maltese and a 4 1/2 lb Schnauzer. The Schnauzer would fly with me, and maybe the Maltese with my daughter later. If I am flying Business or first is my pet able travel in the same cablin area, I was a little unclear on that, and the airlines are less knowlegable than actual travelers?. I brought my son and his wifes cats back from Puerto Rico, we each had a cat in a bag, I flew another airline to them and flew first.
Thank you again. You gave me plenty of info, I have not traveled with these kids before and they are my world. I wish you a great week and many more happy trips wit your dog.
Jan
Thank you again. You gave me plenty of info, I have not traveled with these kids before and they are my world. I wish you a great week and many more happy trips wit your dog.
Jan
Sep 13th, 2009, 12:00 PM
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I was trying to reply to each response, but did not manage the task, smile. To all of you that were so helpfull I am very gratefull. We are leaving the US to go home soon, and France is dog friendly, I am sure avoiding England is a wise choice, although we English were once accused of treating our pets better than our children. Not so any more I fear. So, thanks again and we will make it a fun doggie trip for Maddie Black, who loves tp "go", and Zow White is happiest when sleeping. Happy travels to all. I am moving to dept 62, a tiny ville, Blingil.
Sep 13th, 2009, 12:09 PM
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>> If I am flying Business or first is my pet able travel in the same cablin area, I was a little unclear on that, and the airlines are less knowlegable than actual travelers?
It's not likely that your pets will be able to fly in the same cabin area with you if you fly First or Business class. The reason is because you must put your pet + carrier underneath the seat in front of you, and in most First + Business class cabin areas, this space does not exist. I know that at least this is true with Swiss airline.
If you must bring your dog, please just take one dog.
>> and when I am back in Europe will get them a passport
That would certainly be too late. They need to have the EU 998 "pet passport" BEFORE they even get on the plane across the Atlantic!
It's not likely that your pets will be able to fly in the same cabin area with you if you fly First or Business class. The reason is because you must put your pet + carrier underneath the seat in front of you, and in most First + Business class cabin areas, this space does not exist. I know that at least this is true with Swiss airline.
If you must bring your dog, please just take one dog.
>> and when I am back in Europe will get them a passport
That would certainly be too late. They need to have the EU 998 "pet passport" BEFORE they even get on the plane across the Atlantic!
Sep 15th, 2009, 08:06 AM
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Thank you Nancicita.
It was my understanding that that my dogs needed a French document/passport to travel between the EU countries. Nothing to do with their transatlantic trip.
They are off to the vet today to get their paperwork in order. We will travel Lufty. Maddsie Black and Zoe White thank you for the help.
I dog is going with me and one with a daughter, I am not returning to the US. So, both will be making the trip.
It was my understanding that that my dogs needed a French document/passport to travel between the EU countries. Nothing to do with their transatlantic trip.
They are off to the vet today to get their paperwork in order. We will travel Lufty. Maddsie Black and Zoe White thank you for the help.
I dog is going with me and one with a daughter, I am not returning to the US. So, both will be making the trip.
Sep 15th, 2009, 01:03 PM
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Make sure you download the EU 998 form and have the vet sign that.
Then take that signed form to the USDA within 10 days of your departure to get the papers endorsed. They must stamp it with their official seal on every page.
Then take that signed form to the USDA within 10 days of your departure to get the papers endorsed. They must stamp it with their official seal on every page.
Sep 15th, 2009, 01:11 PM
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Also, I forgot to mention that your point of entry needs to be in France if you are using the EU 998 form for France.
So you cannot fly to Frankfurt, for example, and have papers that were for point of entry in France.
(I'm sure you already know this)
So you cannot fly to Frankfurt, for example, and have papers that were for point of entry in France.
(I'm sure you already know this)
Sep 15th, 2009, 01:13 PM
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The EU 998 forms can be downloaded here:
http://ec.europa.eu/food/animal/live...m_third_en.htm
The health certificate will need to be printed on a single sheet of paper in the language of the Member State of entry (in your case, France) and completed in block letters either in the language of the Member State of entry or in English.
The certificate must be accompanied by supporting documentation, or a certified copy of it, including vaccination details and the result of the serological test. This documentation must bear the identification details of the animal concerned.
The certificate is valid for movements within the EU for a period of four months from the date of issue or until the date of expiry of the vaccination, whichever is earlier.
The certificate must be completed according to the conditions provided for in Regulation (EC) 998/2003 which depend on :
* the third country of origin (there are two kinds of third countries : see Listing of Third Countries)
* the Member State of entry (the United Kingdom, Ireland and Sweden have specific requirements: see conditions above)
IDENTIFICATION
The animal shall be identified by an electronic identification system (transponder), or by a clearly readable tattoo. The tattoo, as a means of identification will only be accepted until 3 July 2011 and not for movements to the UK, Malta and Ireland (transponder obligatory).
http://ec.europa.eu/food/animal/live...m_third_en.htm
The health certificate will need to be printed on a single sheet of paper in the language of the Member State of entry (in your case, France) and completed in block letters either in the language of the Member State of entry or in English.
The certificate must be accompanied by supporting documentation, or a certified copy of it, including vaccination details and the result of the serological test. This documentation must bear the identification details of the animal concerned.
The certificate is valid for movements within the EU for a period of four months from the date of issue or until the date of expiry of the vaccination, whichever is earlier.
The certificate must be completed according to the conditions provided for in Regulation (EC) 998/2003 which depend on :
* the third country of origin (there are two kinds of third countries : see Listing of Third Countries)
* the Member State of entry (the United Kingdom, Ireland and Sweden have specific requirements: see conditions above)
IDENTIFICATION
The animal shall be identified by an electronic identification system (transponder), or by a clearly readable tattoo. The tattoo, as a means of identification will only be accepted until 3 July 2011 and not for movements to the UK, Malta and Ireland (transponder obligatory).
