MSNBC article on European airport security
 

Don't skimp on time, folks.
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European airport security a different ballgame
Standards go beyond those Americans are used to

Tips for Americans: If you're traveling abroad, leave yourself plenty of time, as European security measures can be much more stringent than those in the States

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20779475/

The last many times I've flown on AA out of Europe, I was asked every time:

Which places (towns,cities) I have visited
Which hotels I stayed at

I have been asked several times to produce hotel receipts and the agent would take them and make a photocopy of it. Sometimes it seems like they're more suspicious when I travel alone and for vacation (instead of business).

<<< he last many times I've flown on AA out of Europe, I was asked every time: >>>

That's nothing to do with European security - it's your lords & masters in the Big White House that are responsible for that

<<< This is more like the series of questions you encounter at customs, not at check-in. >>>

Duh - google "Nezar Hindawi"

Exactly. All those things mentioned in the article and what yk mentioned have nothing to do with Europe. It has to do with flying from international airports <b>to the US</b>, as mandated by the US government.

The actual experience differs airport to airport and airline to airline.

Sorry my incredulity meter has just gone off the scale - &quot;Note also that the European Union has pretty much banned bringing drinks on planes.&quot;

Has it heck - otherwise the Duty Free &amp; Tax Paid shops in 25 countries would be staging major revolts.

I think once again it's US rules that are applying rather than EU rules

Sorry. Haven't really finished.

It can be Europe, it can be Asia, but boarding a flight to the US will involve:

- A little interview about &quot;are you carrying stuff for others&quot;, and &quot;have your bags been with you the whole time&quot;, &quot;what countries have you visited&quot;, etc. <b>yk</b> is a single, pretty young, female, traveling by herself, and that fits a profile that has &quot;elevated&quot; risk. Same thing is if you have visited places in the middle east. This part is done by security personels hired by the airline.

- Regular security of that airport's authority.

- A secondary screening before getting on the plane. This may be in a sequestered are in front of the gate(s), or on the jetway. Some airlines/airports have more room and more people working, so there's little wait. Or it can be a mess. Because of this screening, you have to consume all liquids you buy in the gate area. And you cannot buy duty free liquids unless the shop has the protocol to bring the items directly to the gate. Again, this part is done by airline-hired personnel.

One thing is that those three things don't have be in the exact order. As long as they're done. For example, some airlines allow online check-in even for international flights to the US. If you don't have luggage to check, you can go straight through the airport security with your BP printed beforehand.

But then, at the secondary screening, they'll have to do the &quot;interview&quot; then.

Does it really matter whose rules are being followed or which sequence the operational aspects occur? Such nitpicking. IT CAN TAKE LONGER.

Absolutely, because that article and your title suggested there's something special about European airport security.

Which is not the case.

jsmith, thanks for the link.

&lt;&lt;&lt; Does it really matter whose rules are being followed &gt;&gt;&gt;

Yes because they'll blame the Europeans for rules imposed by the US

From my own personal experience, I don't agree that it is just flights to the US. I've made several intra-Europe flights in the past couple of years and had to deal with the same type of security discussed in the article, including on non-US airlines. I particularly do a lot of flying out of Heathrow and I also don't see international travelers being treated any differently when it come to security, regardless of whether their destination is the US. I just know that I have run into much more stringent security in Europe than I have ever had to deal with in the US.

My own experience is that I've flown quite a few internal European flights - from UK to Italy, from France to Italy, from Italy to UK, etc, and never had I seen any &quot;interviewing&quot; or secondary screening.

The only times I've gone through all these are flying to the US since 9/11, and flying TO and FROM Israel.

Two years ago - flying from Frankfurt to San Francisco on Lufthansa - the security was intense. There was a secondary security check and every passenger had to undergo a body pat-down going into the gate area. The airport P.A. system kept announcing that any passengers going to the United States should get to their gate at least an an hour and a half before the flight was scheduled to board. This was AFTER the usual security to get to the general gate concourse. It took forever to get onto the actual flight.

Yes, of course the US Government has strict rules for security for flying into the US...gee I wonder why!

RKkwan-what you have stated is not exactly correct: You cannot articulate a static model for aviation security-it doesn't work like that-security measures for airports and air carriers have to be dynamic and mutable, according to the threat situation. Therefore, there IS NO particular set of aviation security procedures that are in effect for European airports, as opposed to American airports-they are ALL DIFFERENT-and that is, as it should be.

The TSA regulates EACH airport in the world through the foreign airport assessments, -these assessments present a comprehensive security picture for the airport, and are classified, because of host country sensitivities.

But there are ICAO Annex 17 (aviation security) procedures in effect at each of these European airports too, therefore, there will be measures employed by the host country on intra-European flights along the same model as those mandated by the USG for flights inbound to the US. There is secondary screening at the gates, for example, on certain intra-European flights-and/or other security measures employed-again it is dependent on the threat conditions for the particular country and airport in question.

So again, there is no static model in Europe either-as members of ICAO, and the EU, there is a baseline over and above which they may implement certain security measures -there is a certain amount of harmonization within the EU-but almost by definition, aviation security can never be completely &quot;harmonized&quot; with respect to security measures amongst the member states-because such a policy would be ineffective in countering a criminal or terrorist attack against civil aviation.

Yes, nothing is totally uniform across airports. I'm just stating in fairly general terms - which will apply to most flying public for intra-European flights and international-to-US flights.

Anyways, that's beside the main points of my posts in this thread, which is the low quality of mainstream media reports.

Thanks jsmith. This article is reassuring. I won't be worrying so much about a shoe bomber trying to go to hell real quick.

In 1986, my wife and I were in France when a terrorist attack took place a block from a cafe where we were having a drink. This explosive attack was at the Gendarmerie, in the center of Paris.

In succeeding days, other attacks took place within Paris, and the borders to France were sealed. Cops patrolled the city in trios, not in pairs. Machine gun nests with sandbags were set up at intersections and in the plaza outside railway stations. We witnessed several arrests and searches conducted on civilians by plainclothes cops. They were looking for a family of anarchists, it turned out. Some of the family members were in custody, and other family members decided to raise hell in order to get them released. Holding France hostage, as it were. Imagine! Removing the huge pots holding plants and small trees along the Champs Elysees! Mon Dieu!

When we left France via Orly airport, we underwent baggage searches and interrogrations by plainclothes police.

This sort of thing is not new. Get used to it. It's the world in which we live -- and have lived -- for many years. America was just late getting into the game. Regrettable, yes. Will we ever return to &quot;the good old days&quot;? I doubt it.

Travelers,
The last time I went through airport security in August, they wanted anything, electric or electronic, bigger than a cell phone, out in the pan.

...as noted much of this garbage applies only to flights to the United States; much of it is the paranoia of the US government which has pressured the eu into providing a lot of information, much of it really none of their business, before flights are allowed to leave for the United States...of course we all know none of this will really help that the vermin will always be able to figure out ways round this silly security but that's the kind of administration we have right now (and unfortunately much of the population supports it like it is going to help or prevent those really intent)...

I know at Heathrow, when I fly American Airlines, what happens is you have the regular security check before entering the departure area of terminal 3 and yes you are allowed to buy stuff there and carry it on the flight...they don't announce gates for flights to the USA until about 75 minutes before the flight and when you finaly make your way to the gate, you hand over your boarding pass and right after there is a security person who looks at your boarding pass and decides either based on some sort of code or some kind of profiling whether you get the &quot;random&quot; check where they go through everything in your hand luggage...this is only done at the insistance of the US government on flights to the USA...all the rest of the information is collected at check in including passport number, credit card used, complete itinerary, color of hair, color of eyes...if the US government could perfect the technology I'm sure some bureaucrat will insist on a retina scan too but it hasn't quite gotten that far yet.

I went to Ireland in <b>1994</b> as chaperone with a US high school band. The searches and security upon arriving in Ireland were more than we'd ever witnessed up until then. (Sadly, probably for the same reason we now do, as Ireland has been subject to terrorists far longer than we have.)

Of course, upon questioning by some teens as to why every bag was being so thoroughly searched, we found the Irish at least had a sense of humor about it: &quot;Well, we wouldn't want ya bringin' any snakes into Ireland now, would we?&quot; :)

xyz123dope...If you don't like the security measures flying into the US....then...don't!

That's the attitude I mean...civil liberties mean nothing, unfortunately, to some people.

Again like any of this garbage would stop anything.

USNR,

I remember the 1986 incident. I was living in Paris near Place Maubert. I was walking to a lunch date with a girl who worked at the Banque de France. As I was passing the H&ocirc;tel Dieu a police car came around the corner so fast that it almost rolled, and it would have been rolling over me.

I continued walking. A few minutes later I happened on the scene of the crime, a building a couple of blocks north of the Seine. All of the windows on the 3rd or 4th floor were blown out. Curtains were flying in the air. Broken glass covered the street. I continued on to my lunch date. Later on my way home the whole area was cordoned off. Cops were everwhere. The story I heard or read was that the bomb went off in a men's room of what is the French equivalent of the FBI. IIRC the assistant director was killed.

In following days other bombs were set off around Paris. One was in the post office of the H&ocirc;tel Dieu, a small post office I used often. Some people were killed in that bombing.

As you report, patrols were everywhere. In all train stations 3 man squads armed with carbines marched continuously through the crowds. This was deadly serious business.

I gladly submit to any request of a security officer at any airport, and allow plenty of time for eventualities. I read a book or have a beer while I wait. Sadly, mass murderers are taking joy in causing mayhem. It has become a fact of of our society.

My experience for the past 20 years has been:

- US airlines in Europe have long been more prone to excess security than European airlines. Even in the late 80's, secondary inspection, or interrogation prior to checkin, was routine on AA, TWA and PanAm (even on intra-European flights) even when BA and Virgin didn't bother on flights to the US
- Secondary security searching seems to be almost routine on US airlines' flights to the US. It absolutely isn't on British airlines' flights to the US, though from what I read on this board, it seems routine at Frankfurt
- Apart from that, I really can't tell the difference between security in Europe on intra-European flights and security in the US. Except that security in Britain is invariably better-humoured and polite than in the US.

And one other difference. As the MSNBC article shows so clearly, Americans always create huge global theories about foreigners from one example of how their own companies behave. Is logic not on any US school syllabuses then?

Our LTU return flight out of D&uuml;sseldorf in June 2004 was very thorough! We had two very meticulous security screenings prior to boarding. One was upon entering the &quot;secure&quot; area and the other just outside our gate. No &quot;interview&quot; in either situation though.

This past June we flew back from K&ouml;ln. We were interviewed while in line to check-in at the airline counter but it wasn't much and certainly done in a professional manner, causing absolutely no delay. Following that we experienced only a single security screening of our persons and carry-ons. Compared to the D&uuml;sseldorf experience, I'll take K&ouml;ln everytime! We ended-up with 3+ hours to kill because we had gotten to the airport prepared for the arduous security process. At least the Kolsch was marvelous! :-D

MvK

I fly regulary within Europe for business reasons and my experience is that 60 minutes are plenty for intra-European flights if the check-in is fast. I normally use e-tickets with a check-in at an automat and then a luggage drop-off and in airports as Frankfurt I´ve seldomn needed more than 5 minutes for that.

What can be annoying are double security checks. In the case described, they quite certainly resulted from the US being the destination since other standards are required than from the regular security check. If an airport hasn´t got the ability to set up a seperated space for US-bound flights, passengers have to go through the regular security check just to get into the area from which they proceed to their &quot;real&quot; security check. Another problem results from transfer passengers. If you have passengers coming from flights from non-EU countries, they now need to go through a control according to the new EU rules (no liquids). If the airports can´t seperate them from the new passengers, everybody has to go through a security check at the gate, even if one just has passed a similar one to enter the area.

As for patting down: again it depends on the security level. If the security is high, everybody gets a patdown, no matter whether the metal detector is set off or not. In that case, you don´t need to take off metal stuff since they will inspect you anyway. I´m somewhat surprised that the auhor found these patdowns brusque and worthy of a lawsuit. I experienced quite a lot of them and always found them to be very professional. Of course one gets touched but that´s the idea of a patdown, isn´t it?

My husband is always selected for a pat-down at security because his bionic knee sets off the metal detector. He tells me that our recent transfer in Amsterdam (to an intra-European flight) included the most intimate search he's ever undergone.

How much should you tip the person who pats you down?

Does anyone know?

&gt;... like any of this garbage would stop anything.&lt;

And if Richard Reid had had a better pack of matches?

If current security measures had been in force before 9/11?

When was the last time an ElAl plane was hijacked?

&gt;How much should you tip the person who pats you down?&lt;

In general, European service personnel do not expect tips for just doing their job.

However, if it was an extra good pat down, a Euro would be in order.

((I))

Of course Ira if the idiotic pilots had not left their cockpit door open, and adequate locks were on cockpit doors, then 9/11 wouldn't have happened either......

BTW let me make it clear, I don't object to security checks in general and I have no problem with them checking me at security and checking my shoes and all that but once is enough, it's the extra stuff only on flights to the United States that seem to be simply the result of general paranoia that has swept the country when any competence at all on the part of the inteligence agencies or even on the airlines (see above about the cockpit doors) would have prevented the whole thing.

...BTW to lighten up a bit...

Do you know that in the 14th and 15th century, you were expected to tip your executioner, especially if you were nobility and given the honor of being executed by a swordsman beheading you, so that they would make a clean cut....

&lt;&lt;&lt; When was the last time an ElAl plane was hijacked? &gt;&gt;&gt;

and can you imagine the &quot;fun&quot; if they introduced Israeli style pre-flight security on all flights

No offense, but it sure seems like a lot of whining going on. In the scheme of things is it really all that bad for a little extra security?

Don't know about European but we just flew in to Heathrow, then up to Edinburgh, and the whole thing in reverse, and there was not very much security...just a fleeting check. So guess that it is a random thing, the heavy duty stuff, huh?

OK, those of you that actually feel safer flying today than you did before the TSA was formed...raise your hands.

Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?

Let's be real. If you really wanted to cause a problem now, are you going through the regular check in? Are you going to travel alone, knowing that they &quot;profile&quot; single travelers? Are you going to travel one way, knowing they profile one-way travelers? And, oh yeah, how many 3oz bottles of liquid can you put together to get what you need? How is THAT making us safer? THree of you are traveling together, you buy a bottle of water once you're through the gate, and mix all of your 3 oz's of whatever together, yes?

I mean, really. Two pencils and a box of dental floss can be used as a garote.

I feel NO safer and actually feel LESS safe because I think they spend so much time &quot;securing&quot; people/things that are a waste of time and resources. I have twice accidentally walked through security with &quot;forbidden&quot; items. The first, a pair of nail clippers. They dug through my purse 6 times and still couldn't find them. They finally let me go. I found them later that week. The second was a pair of very sharp cuticle scissors I had borrowed from my sister. The stopped my bag, took out the metal nail file and I found the scissors in my bag when I got home!!!

Our best security now is the memory of 9/11. Every one of us is more sensitive/more keen to what is going on in the airplane and I have no doubt I and my fellow passengers would take action if we had to. (Look at the increased incident rate of passengers tackling/holding unruly/psychotic planemates.)

So, let me ask again. Raise your hand if YOU feel safer than you did prior to TSA? Anyone??? Bueller???