<I>Just keep your mind on the fact that you would want to be able to speak to someone living 100k away from you. French helps in many places, Spanish doesn't (unless you're in southern France and those folks across the border prefer Catalan).</I>

Well, since it is toss out anecdotes and hope that they outweight the overwhelming evidence, i will offer that I know more Spanish speakers in Denmark than German or French speakers. Throughout Europe, English is the common second language. All this talk about French being more useful as a second language is just silliness and not supported by the facts. French is useful if you travel often to France. As a means for an American to communicate with an Italian, for example, it is a waste of time.

Well, say what you want, it doesn't make it any more relevant to the question. Some just don't listen, I can't help you.

<I>
- With German, I can read the newspapers in Denmark, Sweden and Norway and understand quite a bit of what is said in Dutch</I>

Except the statement is horsecr*p. The Scandinavian languages are not really that close to German. Oh, you might make out a word or two (a strict English speaker can do that), but the idea that you can read a Danish newspaper because you speak German is ridiculous. Heck, the Scandinavian languages have been drifting apart and are not always mutually intelligible, but one should believe that German and Danish are mutually intelligible? Please...

Let's not repeat every absurd statement we read on the Internet, okay?

<I>Well, say what you want, it doesn't make it any more relevant to the question. Some just don't listen, I can't help you.</I>

It is relevant to the question. The question is what is the best second language and are they worth the effort. The answer to the first part is that all are limited, likely more lmited than English over any decently broad geographic area. The answer to the second part is that a native English speaker will garner little practical benefit from rudimentary knowledge of German, Italian, or French, outside of the countries where those are the native languages.

Sorry to say, but it is your reprinting of wildly inflated claims about the usefulness of German in reading Scandinavian newspapers that is not relevant. You just don't listen (or is it that you can't comprehend?) - I know I can't help that, but I figure I should say something, lest some innocent person come along, think you know what you are talking about, and waste there time trying to speak mangled German to an Italian, when fluent English would be better.

I know what I can read. LOL
I can read this http://www.aftenposten.no without taking a single day of lessons in Norwegian. Must be a genius LOL.
But the difference between ikke and inte still escapes me. :D

<I>I know what I can read. LOL </I>

And I know BS when I read it.

Flyktningstrøm fra Elfenbenskysten
Minst 25.000 flyktninger har allerede kommet til Liberia fra Elfenbenskysten. Humanitære organisasjoner frykter at situasjonen kan komme ut av kontroll.

Just an example for Norwegian, every German will be able to give an instant and correct translation of this text into German without the need of a translator. :-)

I know it's not posibble to have a discussion with you anyway, but hey one can try, and I'm always quite ambitious.

To my surprise, in major cities like Munich and Berlin we had to look for someone young to get info in English.
Perhaps, Turkish or Polish are now more useful in Germany than English.

Yes, in Munich Turkish works better than English and Polish also helps.

What logos is saying about READING ( and understanding the text) is very different form being able to speak with
any fluency .
I can understand good deal of written Catalan or Portuguese
but that is where it stops. Same with the number of Slavic
languages.
Even the Norwegian text contains several words I can easily recognize from English.

Italian is used in the Vatican, San Marino, and <i>most</i> of Italy, but not all. Residents of some/all of Valle d'Aosta speak French, and those in Alto Adige sprechen deutsch. (Yes, that's probably the wrong verb conjugation, but work with me here...non parlo tedesco. :-) ). Italian is also spoken in parts of southern Switzerland and in eastern Corsica (Napoleon's first language, for instance, was Italian and not French!). Other than talking with old guys in Little Italies in Boston, New York, Chicago, St. Louis, etc., Italian has very limited use elsewhere.

Don't worry about trying to become fluent in any language. Just learn a few basic tourist phrases and you'll be 80% of the way there. Certainly being fluent in, say, Italian is better than not being fluent in it, but being fluent is by no means a requirement or even a recommendation. For instance, I speak only the few words of Portuguese that I picked up on the plane flight across the Atlantic listening to <i>Portuguese for Dummies</i> -- s&oacute; umas palavras portugueses -- plus that which I learned from having to fend for myself and I was able to survive 2 1/2 weeks in Portugal. I learned very quickly how to order a cup of coffee and a pastel de Bel&eacute;m for breakfast and that 2 pasteis de bacalhau is a quick lunch or dinner. With just a little bit of preparation, you'll be amazed at the basic sentences you'll pick up from being immersed in the language and having to feed yourself!

Nonetheless, learning the Big Nine is critical in any language:

* Yes
* No
* Please
* Thank You
* Where is the ____ (especially, where is the restroom!)
* How much is it/how much does it cost?
* I would like ____
* What?
* Numbers 0-101

"* Yes
* No
* Please
* Thank You
* Where is the ____ (especially, where is the restroom!)
* How much is it/how much does it cost?
* I would like ____
* What?
* Numbers 0-101"

Agree with all of those but don't forget the most important one of all in an internet cafe - where did you hide the @ key on this keyboard?

Cheers, Alan
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com/

"Why do some Europeans refuse to recognize the dramatic rise of Spanish as a language and cling to ridiculously outdated conceptions of the role of French in the world? "

Except for the French, they don't. And where's the dramatic rise in Spanish? English has become the second language in most parts of the world. However, having said that, a latin language will help you farther in some parts of Africa and South America.

" And where's the dramatic rise in Spanish? "

in the USA

Just for the record, here are the languages studied the most in France as a 1st foreign language:

English 78.57%
German 16.40%
Spanish 2.23%
Italian 1.32%

There are some major regional variations of course, such as Strasbourg with German at 95.4%, but the Pyrénées seem to be a formidable barrier against the Spanish language, because in cities like Toulouse, Spanish is at 15% (8% in Bordeaux and Montpellier). Not that mountains make much difference -- in Lille, only 2% of the students learn Dutch as their primary foreign language.

As for second foreign languages, Mandarin and Japanese are fighting an interesting battle for 5th place. I'm sure that Mandarin will win, though.

Perhaps the French feel they can easily "pick up" Spanish and Italian without devoting much time to a formal study?

When I started learning Spanish, one person in the class who left us all "in the dust" was a native Italian speaker.
I also found that native Spanish speaker had an advantage in the French class ( over the English speakers).

Spanish is one of the world's simplest languages, with a very small vocabulary compared to most others, so anyone who's got full command of another romance language can very easily pick it up or at least read and understand it. I've never studied Spanish, but with 11 years of Latin and more than a decade of study each of two other romance languages can get by in it very easily.

With fluency in Frecnh, I can confirm that it helps immensely with Italian. I've taken several intro courses in Italian, and when in doubts, I would "think" in French and that helped to find the Italian words. Intro course in German...not so much :)

I found my knowledge of French helped a lot with learning Italian. I can make some sense of written Spanish (from my French) although I speak no Spanish.

I found my knowledge of French helped a lot with learning Italian. I can make some sense of written Spanish (from my French) although I speak no Spanish.>>

lol - i once tried to learn Italian and spanish simultaneously. i ended up completely confused.

we met some mexicans in Rome whose technique was to shout in Spanish. it seemed to work!