Hi, Eloise-Well,I went back to a few of my (many) books about Rome and found three that say Campo dei Fiori,one that said de'Fiori.I'll send this one on to my Italian teacher who is Roman to see what she says.

Massagediva: If I remember when I get home tonight, I shall also go through my large collection of guidebooks on Rome. We can then duel it out with statistics at 20 paces...!

But I still maintain -- unstatistically -- that I have never heard a Roman clearly say "deI"; it's more a sort of "de" with a slight "j" sound at the end. The fact that "j" does not exist in Italian complicates matters a little...

A better example, perhaps: What I have heard Romans say is something very close to how we pronounce the word "day."

Hi, again Eloise!- I'm writing dei with and i,not del with an l.Yes, it is a subtle sound,but in Italian each vowel is pronounced,although to the non-native ear(like mine) it may be hard to catch.Dei does in fact sound like dei.

Scratch that last sentence! Dei in fact does sound like day.

Massagediva: That was a capital "I" not a small "L."

But we're still not in agreement. in the street name "Via dei Portoghesi", the "i" is clearly pronounced. In English, it might be "day-ee." But Campo de' Fiori is only "day."

Never mind; we'll have our statistical duel later this evening...

Massagediva: I retire from the field, bloodied but with my honor intact. In my various guidebooks etc. about Rome, I count seven "dei Fiori" and five "de' Fiori." The only Italian publication, a Pianta di Roma by Editrice Lozzi (a map of Rome with no date, bought heaven only knows when), says "de' Fiori."

Eloise: I bow to your knowledge.

Would I be correct in saying that the genitive "di" is sometimes, perhaps often, omitted in street names?

For example, nearby C. de' (or dei) Fiori is v. Panico, also called via di Panico.

A google search under "Panico" shows a roughly even split between the two forms.

I always thought of it as via di Panico until I watched A Bicycle Thief again recently -- and heard a local tough say "Nun ti vo' piu veder in via Panico"

Oh, Tedgale, you are greatly overestimating my knowledge of Italian.

My guess -- operative word here is "guess" -- is that the "di" in Via di Panico was left out in "The Bicycle Thief" because the person speaking is not from the educated classes. (He also says "vo'" rather than the correct "voglio," and "veder" instead of "vedere.") Wandering around Rome, I've certainly never heard Via di Ripetta, for example, called Via Ripetta, or Piazza di Spagna called Piazza Spagna.

Footnote for Massagediva on the Campo dei or de' Fiori controversy: The score now stands at seven to six; Access Rome 2002 has de' Fiori...

shall we call it a draw(before someone gets hurt?!)

By all means, Massagediva, let us declare a truce!