Hi F,

www.bahn.de routes you from Kassel to Munich and thence to Florence.

It won't sell the tickets on the internet (neither will trenitalia), but they can be bought in Germany.

You can buy Kassel/Munich for 29E ($39). Munich to Florence is $110. I'm not sure if this is the sleeper price, or just the seat price, as I got it from www.railsaver.com.

Much cheaper than a railpass.

((I))

<You can buy Kassel/Munich for 29E ($39).>

is this full fare or one of those potentially hard to get fares with restrictions - i think a flexible ticket - regular fare should cost much more than that. Value of a pass is not just dollars and cents but dollars and sense - flexibile to take any train any time, at least in Germany where ICEs and nearly no other trains require reservations. Trains in Italy do and you must figure that into the price - Es trains cost 15 euro supplement with the pass.

Hi PQ,

Full fare is 89E.

How did you get the 29E to come up on bahn.de?

<You can buy Kassel/Munich for 29E ($39). Munich to Florence is $110. I'm not sure if this is the sleeper price, or just the seat price, as I got it from www.railsaver.com.

Much cheaper than a railpass>

you are of course comparing apples or oranges - first class pass to second class fares? there are huge benefits to first class, especially on the long trip to Florence IMO

Hey PQ,

How come the sudden urge to wave the flag for 1cl, unrestricted tickets? (This isn't the only thread.) :)

Some people can't afford 1cl.

((I))

Hi flyer,

Look a month in advance.

((I))

because the pass flyer349 is considering is first class pass and i honestly do believe that first class, especially on long trips is infinitely better than 2nd class - i've had maybe 60 first class passes and would only go that way but that is my opinion. But i have ridden in 2nd class as well and always look and see - often it's packed and i have a spare seat next to me to put my bag on, more room for luggage - oh i could give 1,000 reasons why the average novice tourist should go first class on trains - it's not a sudden urge as i've always said that.

My usual retort to someone who says 2nd class is the same as first is that they've probably never ridden first class. I've always been a big booster for first class and in first class passes often stack up better vis-a-vis first class fares.

Same as you could stay in a Motel 6 - perfectly adequate and modern, etc. but most would prefer something more luxurious.

I have always said apply to your train travel the same criteria as you do to picking a hotel or restaurant - cheapest is not always the best.

Few folks on this forum are in the low budget travel category and like Motel 6 2nd class is perfectly adequate.

Like hotels i would not simply base something on whether it's cheaper or not - especially if the person is going on their first rail trip.

Just my prejuidice on a board where spending 200 euros a night on a hotel is de rigeuer it seems yet saving a few bucks on rail travel and sacrificing quality seems to be the norm.

That's my honest take on the matter - first class is almost always worth the extra price, especially for folks over 35!

My train tip this Jan 2007 i rode maybe 100 different trains in six countries and in first class on nearly everyone i had a seat to myself - often a solo window seat with an aisle as well and often empty seats just to flop my backpack on.

I diligently checked 2nd class on these trains and they were often fairly full - at times SRO full. (I think the discount online fares are insuring full trains in 2nd class - and in France even in 1st class on TGVs as railways)

I was always glad to be in first class -I also have some knee problems where i need to stretch out - much more conducive in 1st class.

First class IMO is well worth the extra money - especially for groups who want to find seats together and folks with young kids as they make have a row of empty seats to frolick in.

Now some countries the difference is greater - like UK a huge huge difference - 2nd class there is typically littered with newspapers and drinks cans, seats are very cramped - so low that at times i have trouble getting out of them whilst first class is the most luxurious of any in Europe - the old British class system i guess. And in 1st class on trains like Virgin you get not only complimentary drinks but veritable meals - the free food keeps coming by.

Other countries like Austria or Switzerland, especially Suisse because journeys are so short the difference between classes is not as severe - though there ALWAYS is a comfort difference and of course Swiss trains often have domed panoramic cars in first class and rarely in 2nd.

So it's my opinion that first class is worth every penny and i've been posting to the effect for years. I appreciate your opinions and whatever suits you is fine.

<Some people can't afford 1cl.>

may a handful on this board but from what i've read about restaurants and hotels they can and IMO should afford first class.

this double standard about scouring to save a few bucks with the cheapest tickets has always boggled my mind - kind of a game it seems. Again to me use the same criteria you do with hotels, etc.

If you're staying in hostels go 2nd class.

and folks under 26 who can buy the much cheaper youth passes OK - they probably are the few on this board that can't afford first class.

ICE's don't have a reservation requirement. Things may change after the DB stocks get to the stock exchange on Monday.