Mink in Amsterdam?
#42
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ekscrunchy, it's true. A simple google search: "switzerland" "kosher" "ban" will bring up lots of articles.
Faina, I should stop making myself sick by abstaining from meat? Do you have any idea how well-proven it is that vegetarians have MUCH lower rates of heart disease, cancer, and other diseases? I am the picture of health and have cured my own asthma, by the way, through nutrition. Eat all the meat you want, but don't spout nonsense when you clearly know nothing about the many PROVEN benefits of vegetarianism.
And yes, being Jewish, I know all about anti-semitism. To me, being Jewish also means I seek the truth, not just what's been handed down to me. Kosher slaughter is inhumane. Sorry that doesn't jive with your emotions, Faina.
Faina, I should stop making myself sick by abstaining from meat? Do you have any idea how well-proven it is that vegetarians have MUCH lower rates of heart disease, cancer, and other diseases? I am the picture of health and have cured my own asthma, by the way, through nutrition. Eat all the meat you want, but don't spout nonsense when you clearly know nothing about the many PROVEN benefits of vegetarianism.
And yes, being Jewish, I know all about anti-semitism. To me, being Jewish also means I seek the truth, not just what's been handed down to me. Kosher slaughter is inhumane. Sorry that doesn't jive with your emotions, Faina.
#43
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In my (long) life I had fur coats and jackets, mink stoles. However, many years ago, I decided how totally wrong it was. At this point, I would probably be one to throw that tomato - or at least really WANT to!
#44
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There is a very great difference between humanely killing of animals for food and the mass destruction, in a most vicious manner of animals for "beauty".
Anyone that lives south of latitude 55° 45' 7" (Moscow) or north of latitude 55° 45' 7" (Ushuiaia, Argentina)does not need to wear fur.
To wear it for 'looks' is vain and inconsiderate of the pain and terror of animals - and yes, that does reflect on such a person's attitude towards other humans as well. You can read about it in any psychology primer.
Those that do live in climates that require the wearing of fur rarely use the most expensive kind. Just as the rest of us do, they look for the best available at the most reasonable price.
Today the synthetics are just as good as wool or fur for most of the world. There is no need for the torture and pain caused to animals solely for the sake of profit.
Anyone that lives south of latitude 55° 45' 7" (Moscow) or north of latitude 55° 45' 7" (Ushuiaia, Argentina)does not need to wear fur.
To wear it for 'looks' is vain and inconsiderate of the pain and terror of animals - and yes, that does reflect on such a person's attitude towards other humans as well. You can read about it in any psychology primer.
Those that do live in climates that require the wearing of fur rarely use the most expensive kind. Just as the rest of us do, they look for the best available at the most reasonable price.
Today the synthetics are just as good as wool or fur for most of the world. There is no need for the torture and pain caused to animals solely for the sake of profit.
#46
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> A discrete fur-lined collar looks fine, but anything more makes the lady look like a pimp. <
Back in my day, no self respecting pimp would wear a fur coat.
>Did you know our beloved Switzerland is among those countries (rightly in my opinion) that's banned kosher meet production entirely? <
Do you have anything on that later than about 2002? It seems that the ban goes back about 100 years, and (some people argue) was more about anti-Semitism than animal rights.
I wonder C, have you ever been to a slaughter house?
>Is it the wearing of animal skins, or the way the animals are killed to get the skins that people object too?<
Either and/or, luv
Some people would equate killing animals for fur with killing them for trophies.
Back in my day, no self respecting pimp would wear a fur coat.
>Did you know our beloved Switzerland is among those countries (rightly in my opinion) that's banned kosher meet production entirely? <
Do you have anything on that later than about 2002? It seems that the ban goes back about 100 years, and (some people argue) was more about anti-Semitism than animal rights.
I wonder C, have you ever been to a slaughter house?
>Is it the wearing of animal skins, or the way the animals are killed to get the skins that people object too?<
Either and/or, luv
Some people would equate killing animals for fur with killing them for trophies.
#48
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Haven't read all replies, but if there is one place in Europe where I wouldn't wear fur (if I even had one), it is Amsterdam. And I'm not sure tomatoes would not be thrown at you; you will definitely hear remarks about your coat.
#51
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Ira--I found articles on this issue as recent as 2005. (But nothing on the ban being revoked. There's a lot from 2002 only because there was talk then of a total ban on even the importation of kosher meat in Switzerland. I don't think it came to pass.)
Re: the anti-semitism involved in the ban on kosher slaughter, I would like to paraphrase Bill Maher: The sign of an intelligent mind is the ability to accept two seemingly contradictory thoughts simultaneously. Such as, O.J. Simpson killed his wife AND the L.A. police department is corrupt.
In other words, there are anti-semites in the world who argue for the ban AND kosher slaughter is cruel.
It's not right to equate a ban on kosher slaughter with anti-semitism any more than it to equate an objection to the west bank settlements with anti-semitism. Moreover, halal slaughter is objected to just as strongly as kosher slaughter, so there goes that argument. Do some anti-semites use kashrut to bolster their hate-filled agenda? Certainly. Should that stop the well-intentioned from fighting for a more humane world? Certainly not.
No, I've never been to a slaughterhouse, but I've seen video and read eyewitness accounts. (I have been to factory chicken farms, and it's truly awful.) There is a vast difference between different slaughterhouses, as the article you posted indicates. Animal welfare organizations have fought hard to have more humane standards enforced at slaughterhouses, and it has been a very successful campaign.
I don't know how anyone who purports to care about humane treatment of animals can justify eating meat. It's not healthy, and animal cruelty is inevitable. Some people just don't want to let go of their indoctrination.
Re: the anti-semitism involved in the ban on kosher slaughter, I would like to paraphrase Bill Maher: The sign of an intelligent mind is the ability to accept two seemingly contradictory thoughts simultaneously. Such as, O.J. Simpson killed his wife AND the L.A. police department is corrupt.
In other words, there are anti-semites in the world who argue for the ban AND kosher slaughter is cruel.
It's not right to equate a ban on kosher slaughter with anti-semitism any more than it to equate an objection to the west bank settlements with anti-semitism. Moreover, halal slaughter is objected to just as strongly as kosher slaughter, so there goes that argument. Do some anti-semites use kashrut to bolster their hate-filled agenda? Certainly. Should that stop the well-intentioned from fighting for a more humane world? Certainly not.
No, I've never been to a slaughterhouse, but I've seen video and read eyewitness accounts. (I have been to factory chicken farms, and it's truly awful.) There is a vast difference between different slaughterhouses, as the article you posted indicates. Animal welfare organizations have fought hard to have more humane standards enforced at slaughterhouses, and it has been a very successful campaign.
I don't know how anyone who purports to care about humane treatment of animals can justify eating meat. It's not healthy, and animal cruelty is inevitable. Some people just don't want to let go of their indoctrination.
#52
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I have almost given up trying to decide whether or not wearing fur is good, bad or somewhere in between. I think it goes on a case by case basis. For example, I once had a coat lined with New Zealand possum, an invasive species introduced years ago. Possum are not native to NZ, there are way too many of them and they are having a very negative effect on some of the local fauna. So what are the NZers supposed to do with these possum? Beats me.
A good fur coat can be restyled and reworn for decades. I know someone who wears a beautiful mink coat that belonged to her grandmother. It recycling de luxe, but recycling nonetheless. Fake fur is based pretty heavily on petrochemicals.
OTOH, a lot of fur coming from certain countries as inhumanely raised, trapped, killed. Ditto for down, fyi. Hungary is getting a lot of flak right now for the horrific way geese are treated and slaughtered there both for foie gras and for their down/feathers. www.gaia.be
As I am not vegetarian (although I think that some vegetarians lead exceptionally healthy lifestyles, my mother-in-law being a paragon of that type, she's going to outlive us all, I'd bet), I try to eat game in winter. I'd rather dine on a venison or boar that lived a decent life in the wild and then was killed cleanly rather than eat a piece of beef or poultry from an animal raised in terrible conditions, pumped full of drugs and hormones, and then slaugtered in a mega abattoir by poorly paid miserable employees suffering from repetitive stress injuries.
Anyway, A'dam just isn't a fur kind of town.
P.S. I would be leery of buying sheared mink on Ebay. A top furrier in Vienna told me that many coats sold as sheared mink are in fact...marmot (a sort of squirrel/chipmunky/prairie dog).
A good fur coat can be restyled and reworn for decades. I know someone who wears a beautiful mink coat that belonged to her grandmother. It recycling de luxe, but recycling nonetheless. Fake fur is based pretty heavily on petrochemicals.
OTOH, a lot of fur coming from certain countries as inhumanely raised, trapped, killed. Ditto for down, fyi. Hungary is getting a lot of flak right now for the horrific way geese are treated and slaughtered there both for foie gras and for their down/feathers. www.gaia.be
As I am not vegetarian (although I think that some vegetarians lead exceptionally healthy lifestyles, my mother-in-law being a paragon of that type, she's going to outlive us all, I'd bet), I try to eat game in winter. I'd rather dine on a venison or boar that lived a decent life in the wild and then was killed cleanly rather than eat a piece of beef or poultry from an animal raised in terrible conditions, pumped full of drugs and hormones, and then slaugtered in a mega abattoir by poorly paid miserable employees suffering from repetitive stress injuries.
Anyway, A'dam just isn't a fur kind of town.
P.S. I would be leery of buying sheared mink on Ebay. A top furrier in Vienna told me that many coats sold as sheared mink are in fact...marmot (a sort of squirrel/chipmunky/prairie dog).
#53
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Hi C,
>The sign of an intelligent mind is the ability to accept two seemingly contradictory thoughts simultaneously. Such as, O.J. Simpson killed his wife AND the L.A. police department is corrupt.<
Sorry, I don't see the contradiction.
I do find it interesting that some people can believe in God and quantum theory.
May we agree to disagree on modes of slaughtering cattle?
>The sign of an intelligent mind is the ability to accept two seemingly contradictory thoughts simultaneously. Such as, O.J. Simpson killed his wife AND the L.A. police department is corrupt.<
Sorry, I don't see the contradiction.
I do find it interesting that some people can believe in God and quantum theory.
May we agree to disagree on modes of slaughtering cattle?
#54
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"There is a very great difference between humanely killing of animals for food and the mass destruction, in a most vicious manner of animals for "beauty". "
I'm wondering how the process is different. Aren't most animals killed en masse? And aren't all slaughter houses reputed to be horrible places? What's the difference? Please enlighten me.
Unless people are going to give up wearing leather and eating meat, I don't see that much difference in wearing fur or wearing leather shoes and coats.
Shall we all march in lock step wearing drab black and plastic Birkenstocks?
I'll never forget Barbara Kingsolver's observation in Prodigal Summer that, "just as many bunnies are killed harvesting a field of soy beans..."
Human beings are hell on animals as are the other animals.
#55
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I find the argument justifying hunting for sport while being against trapping or raising fur bearing animals contradictory. Hunting can only be classified as a sport.
<<I'd rather dine on a venison or boar that lived a decent life in the wild and then was killed cleanly>>
Any hunter (and I am one), if honest, will tell you that a "clean kill" is the exception rather than the rule. Many deer "go on" for hundreds of yards, many are never found.
Don't throw your paint with one hand while loading your rifle with the other.
<<I'd rather dine on a venison or boar that lived a decent life in the wild and then was killed cleanly>>
Any hunter (and I am one), if honest, will tell you that a "clean kill" is the exception rather than the rule. Many deer "go on" for hundreds of yards, many are never found.
Don't throw your paint with one hand while loading your rifle with the other.
#56
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I’m with BTilke on this one. I don’t know if its wrong or right.
But in my line of work I have been to many slaughterhouses and seen them all: pork, beef and poultry (the worst).
And I wish someone could tell me how slaughtering a farm raised mink is any different than a cow or chicken?
I’ve seen the kosher killing where a rabbi manually slits a chickens throat. I’ve seen the non kosher slaughter where the chickens are pulled through an electrically charged brine to stun them before they are decapitated. I’ve seen the stunning of the cows before they are bled. Its not pretty, yet I continue to eat meat.
Oh, and I am very sure that the meat from these animals used to make furs in not wasted. What do you think they make dog food out of? Heck, they sell the feathers from poultry processors and grind them up and make dog food.
This thread will probably get pulled, but I just had to put in my two cents in.
But in my line of work I have been to many slaughterhouses and seen them all: pork, beef and poultry (the worst).
And I wish someone could tell me how slaughtering a farm raised mink is any different than a cow or chicken?
I’ve seen the kosher killing where a rabbi manually slits a chickens throat. I’ve seen the non kosher slaughter where the chickens are pulled through an electrically charged brine to stun them before they are decapitated. I’ve seen the stunning of the cows before they are bled. Its not pretty, yet I continue to eat meat.
Oh, and I am very sure that the meat from these animals used to make furs in not wasted. What do you think they make dog food out of? Heck, they sell the feathers from poultry processors and grind them up and make dog food.
This thread will probably get pulled, but I just had to put in my two cents in.
#57
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L84SKY
Most people eat meat. I don't, but I do wear leather (cow skin) shoes.
Most abbatoir are AFAIK under government supervision. The methods used for the slaughter of the animals is as painless and fast as possible. They are also checked out by animal protection societies. It is not pleasant and it is not really painless, but is made to be as painless and quick as possible, AFAIK.
OTOH - Watching animals thrown live into boiling water to loosen their skins, and others having their forepaws cut off and skinned while still alive (different kind of animal) and others having their bones broken by being thrown down off of trucks while packed in cages...and all of this in the name of profit, not food - well I would say that there is a great difference indeed.
Yes, killing is unpleasant. When necessary for food it is acceptable to some degree. For vanity alone it is not IMHO.
Most people eat meat. I don't, but I do wear leather (cow skin) shoes.
Most abbatoir are AFAIK under government supervision. The methods used for the slaughter of the animals is as painless and fast as possible. They are also checked out by animal protection societies. It is not pleasant and it is not really painless, but is made to be as painless and quick as possible, AFAIK.
OTOH - Watching animals thrown live into boiling water to loosen their skins, and others having their forepaws cut off and skinned while still alive (different kind of animal) and others having their bones broken by being thrown down off of trucks while packed in cages...and all of this in the name of profit, not food - well I would say that there is a great difference indeed.
Yes, killing is unpleasant. When necessary for food it is acceptable to some degree. For vanity alone it is not IMHO.
#58
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1) I can't believe this Troll got this many replies and that I am responding to this.
2) If you eat meat and/or wear leather or use drugs that involved animals get off your high horses.
3) I wish people would care more about and put their energy into helping their fellow human beings than animals.
2) If you eat meat and/or wear leather or use drugs that involved animals get off your high horses.
3) I wish people would care more about and put their energy into helping their fellow human beings than animals.
#60
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I don't get this thread either. The original poster expressed concern about being treated poorly for wearing fur, and when people came back and treated her poorly, all these other posters are jumping to her defense!
If "Jaberwog" wants to wear fur and be liked by everybody at the same time, she's got a problem nobody can solve. It's a stupid idea to pack fur for Amsterdam (for one thing, it's rarely cold enough) , but doubly stupid if you aren't prepared to have people treat you like dirt for showing up in it.
If "Jaberwog" wants to wear fur and be liked by everybody at the same time, she's got a problem nobody can solve. It's a stupid idea to pack fur for Amsterdam (for one thing, it's rarely cold enough) , but doubly stupid if you aren't prepared to have people treat you like dirt for showing up in it.