How sad does it get?

But noted, and I won't be suckered in again...

Peter

you have been suckered in again, by kybourbon's last post which contains charges against me that are just not true - please check my posts on trains and you will see that the charge about only pushing a first-class railpass agenda is simply untrue - I do however present the benefits of a pass and the real, yes real benefits of first-class travel on trains for those who are only told by the likes of bourbon that there is no real difference between classes on trains and that it is foolish, yes to paraphrase her/him many times to pay extra for first class. Again check my posts and you will see that I present both the pass and also the online discounts but I also say do not judge a pass just by price comparisons but also flexibility of travel to decide which trains you want to take as you go along rather than the discounted online fares that bourbon ONLY pushes - never saying anything good about railpasses, which especially in first class for flexible option train travel as you go along often do stack up very well.

a railpass should not be judged only by pricing as bourbon believes - she/he goes out of their way to malign railpasses like when saying to one railpass question that a pass does not cover the Naples to Sorrento train - well it does not but that train costs about 3 euros and thus that statement is a non factor and irrelevant.

I have ridden literally hundreds and hundreds of Italian trains and zillions in Europe for the past four decades - thanks to my former job, now retired from, of being a profession travel write with an emphasis on European train travel - and I ADAMANTLY say that for the average tourist on the trip of a lifetime first class is well worth it - pictures do not always portray reality but are rather staged - ride the trains a lot and find out. There is some reason many Italians pay extra for first class travel - they are not the dolts to do so that some would make them out!

Peter - I had no intention of duping you but you just entered a debate without knowing the background.

Hi,

I live in Italy and I can confirm PalenQ's warnings about assuming that 2nd class travel will be just as comfortable as 1st class travel. It is not. If you are tall, you are highly unlikely to be comfortable in many 2d class seats, and if it is summer, your chances of getting air conditioning that works are much, much higher if you book first class rather than 2nd.

I haven't got any opinion about buses vs. trains or rail passes vs point-to-point tickets, but I always advise my own friends coming to Italy to travel first class on Italian trains. I have noticed on message boards that there are persistent posters who inveigh against spending for 1st class tickets for ideological reasons. If you want to be sure to be comfortable, travel 1st class on Italian trains.

QUOTE: If you want to be sure to be comfortable, travel 1st class on Italian trains.

COMMENT: I would be a little less "categorical". Air conditioning (and heating) can malfunction in first class as it can in second class.

Are there ifferences between first and second class: TO BE SURE!

The question is: is the additional cost of first class worthwhile? There is no "correct" answer to this question, only "opinions". What traveller A considers to be "worthwhile", traveller B considers to be a waste of money.

I do tend to agree that first class can be advantageous on longer trips (especially from May through mid-October, when second class railcars can get quite full on popular tourist runs such as Rome/Venice, and the weather is often warm/hot). But I'm less convinced on shorter trips (e.g. Rome/Florence), where a 95-minute run in second class should be more "tolerable".

On those unreserved "regionale" trains which offer first class railcars, I find that the additional cost may be worthwhile on longer trips (over three hours), because second class seats on the regionale trains don't pivot forward, as do those in first class. In any case, first class is usually much less crowded on these commuter trains, which is a consideration especially when travelling with luggage.

On the newest Frecciarossa and Frecciargento trains, second class is really quite good, even though the 4-across seating is necessarily narrower (seat and shoulder room) than the 3-across in first class, and consequently seat density is also higher. But many travellers don't find the additional cost of first class to be particularly justifiable on these trains: once again, an "opinion" rather than a "fact."

First class also makes much more sense for the honeymoon or "once in a lifetime" trip, than it does for the habitual tourist. Distinctions of this sort can easily result in a different perspective.

While I prefer to not add a further 13 Euro to the €45 price in 2nd for our 70 minute ESAV Naples/Rome trips, it would be daft not to consider all the circumstances of a particular journey...

And, for example, on the only sensible train from Naples to western Sicily - the 09:58 IC, arrives Siracusa 18:40 - the difference between €51.50 in 2nd, and €70.50 in 1st, is 19 Euro that almost anyone is going to regret not spending!

Peter

Even on reginal trains first class to me is advisable and especially since the price difference is so little - like recently I was coming back from a day trip from Rome on a regional train when at one stop a few hundred high-school kids swarmed aboard - regional trains can indeed by schoolbuses at times as well - I was happy to be ensconced in the first class portion while 2nd class became a SRO place with high school kids who were anything but sislent - doing what high school kids anywhere do.

PQ - Once again, you are attributing words to me that I've never said. You try to frighten people from purchasing tickets online through Trenitalia acting as if the world will come to end if they do. I've never stated there were no differences as you keep posting, but I've always corrected your assertion of "vast differences" on the fast trains and will continue to do so. People need the facts and linking pictures of the actual fast trains(something you never do) helps people decide for themselves. You often tell people to look at Maninseat61's website, but he did a long post on Fodor's about 2nd class being just fine for Italy for trips under 4-5 hours as most train websites state the same thing.

>>>>ira on May 21, 11 at 12:30pm
Pal says,

>but what does she give up for that $58 - flexibility - the ability to hop any train?

I thought that if one bought a ticket on a regional route, one could get on any train on that route, any day. Am I wrong?

If one is using an ES* or a TGV, doesn't one have to purchase a seat reservation good for only one particular train? If so, where is the flexibility for the railpass?

>...the average traveler IMO should be going first class - in so so many ways they may not realize - <

Pish tosh. Stuff and nonsense.

My Lady Wife and I are in our 70's. We only consider 1 cl for long rides, eg, 6 hr or more. If very long, we would probably choose a sleeper, or fly.

Man_in_seat_61 on May 22, 11 at 5:58am
The 1st/2nd class thing is really all about expectation calibration.
If you think you have to push your finances over the edge, bankrupting yourself by stretching to 1st class prices because 2nd class is full of chickens and typhoid germs, think again, as 2nd class is absolutely fine, indeed almost as swish as first class in terms of decor on a Frecciarossa.

The 'average' traveller doesn't travel 1st class, as witnessed by the construction of the trains themselves, with perhaps 60% of seating 2nd class and 40% 1st class. 2nd class is in fact the 'norm' for most Europeans unless the company is paying for your business trip!

On the other hand, it is nice to have more legroom and elbow room, fewer screaming kids (although more laptop users may or may not seem a bonus...).

In contrast to the economy/business class price differential on planes, or even the price differential on most UK trains, 1st class in Italy is an affordable treat.<<<<<


I've never had any financial gain in anything I post.

>>>>ira on May 21, 11 at 12:30pm

Mentioning Ira reminds me of the thing he often said about first and second class in Italy - he said and I am paraphrasing his wording from zillions of posts - 'if under 35 (or 30?) go second class, if over 35 go first class and on this I do agree!

Let me make clear one thing - kybourbon is a tireless helper of folks who are indeed wishing to find the cheapest way to travel by train between Italian towns - really tireless in her/his many many posts that help folks decipher the not always easy to decipher www.trenitalia.com site and the various discount fares that at least I find not apparent at first glance at trenitalia.com. I sincerely applaud her/him. I only differ in my opinion - yes opinion that there is a big difference in classes to me but may not be to others - and yes this is a subjective thing. And with the newer class of ETR trains the difference does appear to be less though of course there always is a difference. Anyway hats off to bourbon for her tireless efforts and I sincerely saay that. I will continue advocating first class for the average tourist on the trip of a lifetime - specially those paying $200-300 a night for a hotel and $100 or more for meals. and also about railpasses being viable for many Italian itineraries, especially if going first class - talking about folks who want fully flexible travel plans to decide which train they want to take once in say Rome or Florence or Venice and not be locked into a certain train. (And yes I always advocate a first class pass IF the person is traveling enough and wants full flexibility - but to say I only flog first class passes is simply untrue - check my many rail posts and you will see not only do I recommend against any pass but always try to point out the online discounts too). But again someone like bourbon taking all that time to help folks out who do want those cheaper tickets. So sincerely hats off to bourbon.

So I hope the final chapter and I will try to give my opinion without some of the over zealousness I may have been guilty of.

Since this is my thread ;) can I comment on first vs second class on the trains? Parts of our trip (still in progress) have been in first, parts in second. We took second on the trains from Switzerland to Milan, and from Milan to Florence. Those seats were fine and we had enough room. Luckily, we had reserved seats. It seemed that many people didn't have reserved seats as people would arrive, say they had reserved specific seats and the others already sitting there had to move. I don't know where they moved to...the train was packed! That also meant that there was little room for luggage. We had to scramble to store ours. (there was no room at the end of the car, which we didn't want to use anyway.)

So for these trains, we may have preferred to use first because of our luggage, and would have definitely preferred it if we hadn't had reserved seats. With seat reservations and without luggage, it was fine for us.

Next we took first class from Orvieto to Rome. I know, I know, not necessary due to the short trip, but again the luggage. (thanks to Fodors, we each only had a carry-on and at this point had filled our extra duffle, and we each had a backpack...but every piece was really heavy now) So easy to have those reserved seats on what I think might have been a regional train. Unfortunately there were people in our seats, but they apologized and quickly moved. An Italian girl was sitting next to me so, thinking of this thread, I asked her if she always used first class. She said for this train, yes always, second class was way too hot for her. We were happy with our choice, although the fabric on the seats was really scratchy! LOL

>>>So easy to have those reserved seats on what I think might have been a regional train. Unfortunately there were people in our seats<<<

Must have been an IC train as R trains do not have reserved seating (any many times no class distinction). There are quite a few IC trains on this route at double the cost of the R trains and only 10 minutes difference in travel time. IC trains are usually much better than the R trains.

I don't find the old Cisalpino tilting trains between Switzerland and Italy as comfortable/nice as the AV trains in Italy as they are much older nor do they have as much luggage storage as the AV. Are you saying there were people on your Milan/Florence train (type of train?) that had no seats?

It's really confusing when people compare apples to oranges so it helps to identify actual train types (for people searching in the future). My comments about 2nd class being fine always includes "on the faster trains in Italy"(AV,ES,ESCity), not the old IC and R trains. There typically isn't anything good about an R train except it's all that's available on some routes and will get you from point A to B. It appears you traveled on a Cisalpino (Switzerland/Milan), an AV (Milan/Florence), and an IC for Orvieto/Rome.

What about the bus from Tiburtina to Pompeii? I haven't been on that bus in a few years. Any problems?

Haven't taken that bus to Pompeii yet - that's tomorrow. We're happy to be delivered right to the entrance. The kids are starting to wear down after 2 weeks of vacation so not dealing with 2 trains first thing in the morning will be good.

As far as what trains we were on, I really don't know other than the one from Orvieto was much older than the other ones, and almost as old as the Regional train from Florence to Lucca. (couldn't reserve seats on that one so I'm pretty sure that really was a regional train.) it certainly had an engine which looked like the regional train.

I think I saw people on every train in someone else's seats. Hey, that includes us on our train to Interlaken. We sat where there were seats together - we didn't have reserved seats, but other people did so we ha d to move. Thus started our quest

Oops pushed the wrong button...

After having to move for those other people since we didn't have reservations and they did, and lug our luggage (now I know why they call it luggage) and find more seats, we were on the quest for the perfect train ride. That train was also packed and as we moved, we did see paper indicating they were reserved. That was our fault, but I can see that lots of people might make a mistake unknowingly. There were people on one train who were in the correct seat numbers, but in the wrong car. Some in our seat the first time (yes, we kicked people out of our seats more than once) didn't seem to have tickets and didn't seem to be surprised at all. We were told we had to have reservations for that train so why wouldn't they have just gone to their seats? it's confusing, I agree.

I have found that some of the confusion in seating seems to be that the reservations are made based on one configuration of railcar , and the car that shows up is of another configuration, making the reservations basically worthless. I recall some tense moments trying to sort that out with the language barrier. That's another reason to consider first class when crowds are anticipated on Italian trains.

Until a few years ago, reserved seats on Italian trains were marked with a slip of paper indicating the portion of the trip for which the seat was reserved. The reservation slips were time-consuming to put in place and were inserted when the train began its route. On some of the older trains that have the cabinets for six people, one can still see the holder for these reservation slips in the corridor by the door to each cabinet.

With this system of reservation labels, it was easy to see if a seat was reserved. And if I had reserved the middle seat in the cabinet from Venice to Florence, I could see that the window seat was reserved for Florence to Rome, so I might switch to the window seat since that person would not need the seat until I got off the train.

Now all seats are reserved on most trains, but there's no way to know for what part of the train route. I think many people get on the train, spot their reserved seats, note that their seat grouping already has a few people, and decide to take chance on a seat in a less crowded part of the carriage. Or their group might have booked tickets that were not near one another, but they spot a group of empty seats all together and decide to take a chance.

Not sure if still true but until recently several rows of seats on IC trains were not reserved and open to first come first serve - like seats 71-87 or some such thing - only on IC trains - I wonder if this is still the case?

PalenQ,

I think that was discontinued when reserved seats became mandatory on IC trains. Leaving those seats unreserved was a way for people to know where to find unreserved seats after reservation labels were discontinued.