Milan or Cologne?
 

We have a bonus week to use at a Marriott property the last week of August. We generally use these weeks as a base to explore areas within a 2-hour radius via train. We have never been to Italy. Using Milan as our base, we would take day trips to Como and the Lakes, Florence, Venice, Verona, etc.. We love Germany and have already been to Bavaria and Eastern Germany. If we stay in Cologne we would daytrip to areas along the Rhine and Mosel Rivers . Our interests are: good food and drink, scenery, walking, historic sights, friendly people and riding trains. Which should we choose?

Milan. There is no shortage of nearby destinations to love around Cologne, but you should stretch your wings. It's hard to believe that you won't like northern Italy.

Any daytripping you do in and out of Milan will make for some long days, and unless you cannot bear the added cpst, i would encourage you to consider making your trip to/from Venice an overnighter.

Likewise, it is unfortunate that you have to go out and back to all the wonderful places that surround Lake Como. I would strongly encourage you to plan on one LONG day that ends with dinner at Hotel d'Este at Cernobbio. I would make it a car rental day. With a reservation, you could start that day in the late morning by going to Villa del Balbianello.

I can recommend Bergamo as a nearby gem, and though I have never been to either one, I think that Pavia and Cremona are good day trip destinations that are not so far.

Best wishes,

Rex

Puppe, another vote for Milan, especially since you have not been to Italy. The Lakes are magnificent and easily accessible from Milan. Do not miss the monastery at Pavia(very nearby) which is spectacular. You might also consider a jaunt to Parma or Turin. So many choices... Enjoy!

I will vote for Milan. I felt the actual city had more to see than Cologne, probably 2 days worth. Venice might make too long of a daytrip but Florence/Lake Como/Turin/Verona would work.

It might be a little hot the end of August but if that doesn't bother you it would be a great place to spend a week.

In the last week of August, I would suggest Cologne.

Milan and the North Italian lakes can get awfully hot in summer and riding non-airconditioned regional trains is not much fun.

Here a few hints what Cologne has to offer:

- Firstly, of course, the cathedral. It is not just another Gothic cathedral - it is one of the few with completed towers and one of the largest. The shrine of the Three Magi (manufactured in 1191 of gold and more than 1000 jewels) is especially notable. The treasury is one of the best in the world.

- Secondly, the Roman-Germanic museum with spectacular exhibits. Expect a Roman tomb, several large mosaics, lots of insights into daily life of Germanics and Romans and the very best glassworks of Roman times.

- Thirdly, if you want to get a kind of eerie glimpse of Roman architecture, see the Praetorium (the Governor's Palace). You find it in the cellar (!) of the medieval City Hall and, as a bonus, you have the chance to walk through a 2,000-year-old sewer (about 200 yards).

- Fourthly, besides the Gothic cathedral, Cologne boasts 12 (!) Romanesque churches.

- Fifthly, the art museums. The Wallraff-Richartz-Museum for medieval art and the Museum Ludwig for contemporary art are among the best art museums on earth. On my last visit to Museum Ludwig, I counted 52 Picassos alone.

- Sixthly, there is a Chocolate Museum on the riverbank. The Ludwig family (who sponsored the art museum) has been one of Europe's largest chocolate manufacturers (e.g. "Lindt & Sprüngli").

Moreover, you have a lot of brewing pubs, the Old Town, the riverbank etc.

And you have excellent train connections to:

- Aachen - another medieval town with a spectacular Romanesque cathedral (Charlemagne was crowned there exactly in the year 800, his marble throne is on display) and a fine Gothic City Hall.

- Düsseldorf - a residential city with more excellent art museums (K20 for 20th century art and K21 for 21st century art), a beautiful riverbank, Germany's most elegant shopping street (Königsallee) and the spectacular Neanderthal Museum in nearby Mettmann.

- The Rhine Valley with its castles (Marksburg is especially notable) and picturesque villages, easily accessible by train and boat.

Milan.

I recommend Milano.
Visit the city, Scala, the Duomo , go to roof of Duomo – were you can see very close a lot of statues that from the street you can not note them. Visit and Cimiterio Monumentale with its huge monuments. Go for a cake or a drink at the last floor of la Rinascente department store - you have there nice view of the Duomo.

As day trip (by train), go to Bergamo , Lugano ,Varena and Villa Carlota (Lake Como), Verona.

However, if you decide to go to Cologne, take the train (15 min. ride) to Bruhl, to visit the beautiful castle there. It is located near train station, so it is very easy.

Milan! I have nothing against Cologne, but Milan would definitely be my pick if I had these two choices, even in August. And another thumbs up for Bergamo and the Lakes (you don't have to ride a a regional train with no AC to get to the Lakes).

Thank you, this is exactly the kind of information I was hoping to receive. Cologne sounds lovely, and I know I would enjoy it, but maybe it is time to get my feet wet in Italy. We will definitely do an overnighter on at least one of the longer days. I confess to being intimidated by the Italian language and my lack of "style". I have read that August in Milan can be stifling hot and deserted, but we will be away much of the time, and crowds should not be a problem in the city itself.

I wouldn't use either the Wallraff-Richartz-Museum or the Museum Ludwig as part of the case to sway you. If you've been anywhere else in Europe, you've seen much more significant museums, and if you have Milan in your sites, you'll do better there in terms of art. We weren't terribly impressed with either in Cologne.

Nice day trips from Milano:

Lago Maggiore, an hour away by train. You can visit islands on the lake, or take a cable car into the mountains for a hike.

Lago di Como -- you can take a train to the town of Como and catch a ferry for a boat ride to Bellagio. Cross over to Varenna and take the train back.

Mantova is easy to get to by train, with many fantastic art sights and many people enjoy bicycling there.

Take a train to Lago di Garda -- either Pescheira del Garda or Desenzano del Garda -- and then hop a boat to the wine town of Bardolino (where you will also find plenty of ice cream by the lake shore).

Torino has legendary food and wine, and a wonderful air conditioned movie museum!

I wouldn't worry about not being able to get all that you need even with limited Italian (Milano is an international city). As for lack of "style", just wear cool, clean clothes, and comfortable shoes.

(You don't say if you are a woman or man, but if you're a woman, clicking through this pix of summer streetwear in Milan should reassure that simple is stylish.

http://www.refinery29.com/a-quick-hi...reet-style.php

Thanks, zeppole. I loved the link to the photos! Your day trip suggestions are now on my list.

I would not recommend staying at the older worn down Milan Marriott, the staff has a terrible attitude, and the location is rather inconvenient unless you don't mind taking taxis as it is far from the main sights. The closest metro station Wagner is almost half a mile away, a long walk in the summer heat. It is not a good base hotel to train out of the city since the Milano Centrale Train Station (for Bergamo, Lake Como) is 2.5 miles away, the Cadorna train station ( Malpensa Express)is 2 miles away and the Duomo city center is 2 miles away.
 

I haven't stayed at the Milan Marriott, but I agree with todor that its location is not good for someone intending to make lots of day trips using public trans. Of course, if the Marriott is costing you nothing, you'll have money for taxis. Just know they will not likely have A/C and in our experience the drivers become less than aromatic after several hours behind the wheel.

I am grateful for your input, Todor and Jean, especially regarding distance to the train station. It is something I am concerned about and need to consider before making my final decision. I have also read on another site about the rude staff at the Milan Marriott. Unfortunately, sometimes the little things like this can put a damper on an otherwise fun adventure.

The hotel we stayed in Milan was the only time we experienced rude staff anywhere we've stayed in Europe. I can't say it ruined our experience in Milan though, just made me say if I went back I wouldn't stay in that hotel again. Possibly people in Milan are just less friendly than we are used to?

"Possibly people in Milan are just less friendly than we are used to?"

That has not been our experience over several visits. One of our most memorable experiences in Italy was an encounter with a Milan taxi driver. Long story, but needless to say we will never forget that guy.

You might want to reconsider Cologne, the Mariott is just a couple blocks from the train station and you can walk everywhere from there.  The hotel was built in 2005 as a five star hotel but I've only stayed at the sister hotel Renaissance Cologne which is one of my favorite hotels to stay in Cologne for their great service and food at the executive level. Almost the entire old town is a maze of pedestrian lanes filled with shops, social cafes and Kneipen. 

They have their famous Koelsch beer as well as some unique local dishes for you to  try in Cologne, and not to mention their own interesting local dialect with Dutch words.  The locals in Cologne are known to be more gregarious and social probably because the city is very youthful.   There is an abundant of lively inexpensive places to eat/drink where the locals hang out, just ask the concierge for the best lively places to meet the locals.  

You can hop on the S bahn to the more cosmopolitan Dusseldorf or the ex-capital Bonn, if not train to the old roman city of Aachen.  To me, Cologne and Dusseldorf have a touch more of the Dutch relaxed easygoing attitude, but that's just my perception.  It is only an hour away from the dutch border and for as low as 19 euro you can take the ICE train from Cologne to the lively student town of Utrecht (2 hour ride) or even Amsterdam (2:30 hour ride for 19 euro).   By the way Brussels and Heidelberg are also within 2 hour by ICE train.  Of course you can easily do day trips to the touristy wine towns along the Rhine and Mosel, but one of the hidden gems in the area is Trier with it's impressive cathedral, ancient roman city gate Porta Nigra and atmospheric old town lanes and square.

I didn't mean to write like a guide book, must be my jet lag mode as I just came back from Europe.

We found people everywhere, but the hotel staff, to be friendly in Milan. It was also the only time we stayed in a chain hotel, which I generally try to avoid in Europe, so that might have been our problem.

Either city you choose will have good daytrips to choose from so you really can't go wrong.

Don't worry about limited Italian. Even though I try and use my Italian when I can (to be friendly and to keep it up), I don't remember it being a necessity. Just buy a phrase book and familiarize yourself with useful terms. It is always nice to know how to say please, thank you, etc. in the language of the country you are visiting.

Dax, thanks for your insight on Cologne. That, along with the other great travel tips I received from Echnaton, are giving me a lot to mull over. Friends who have been to Italy many times seem to think by visiting Milan and Northern Italy I will not be seeing the "real" Italy. Perhaps I should postpone my Italian trip until I can make a comprehensive visit that includes all the "biggies." That said, I usually like to explore a country away from the typical tourist hotspots, as perverse as it sounds. As far as language goes, I generally try to speak a bit of the local language wherever I go, much to the embarrassment of my fellow travelers. And, lindy27, I realize that a few surly employees do not represent an entire nation--no offense taken.

While I think the hotel situation in Milan deserves a lot of thought, and would probably cause me to choose Cologne, I don't think you need to postpone a first visit to Italy until you can make a "comprehensive visit that includes all the biggies." There's so much to see and experience in Italy that even one very long trip wouldn't be hugely comprehensive.

And Milan and northern Italy is real Italy, too, just a different culture, etc. than other regions of Italy.

On the style in Milan, I worried about that, too, until we stayed in Milan as part of a business trip. It's also a university town, and I saw just as many sloppily dressed college students and I saw business people in business/work clothes, and not so many glamorous people. I like Milan a lot because it's less touristy than some other more comment Italian city destinations.

I don't know where people think the real Italy is, for me it would be Puglia or Calabria because Tuscany, Venice, Rome, and the Amalfi coast and Cinque Terre are hypercommercialized for tourism, far from being the real Italy. The best thing about going to Italy is how much the people appreciate when you speak their language,in fact they'll speak Italian with you even if you don't. So if you decide to visit Italy, you should really learn at least some basic Italian conversation if you want to experience the real Italy regardless of where you go. I just got back from Rome and Sorrento where we had so much fun every single day and night, we met so many people and hanged out (and drank) with them till 3 am every night and started our day on espresso around 7 am ( I'm sick with a fever now from prolonged fatigue). The biggest down side was definitely the boring roman food, I would score northern Italian food a 10 but roman food 5 or less. We got a little tired of tourists traps and being cheated/ ripped off during this trip, it made us appreciate Germany. I actually appreciate Milan for being a very real Italian metropolitan with decent food choices and not overrun by tourists, it's ashamed that there is no Renaissance in Milan for you to stay in.

It's a bit like Sarah Palin under the impression the "real" America doesn't live in New York or San Diego.

A great deal of the Italian culture that flies off the shelves in America -- from designer handbags to gorgonzola cheese and pinot grigio white wine -- is created in Northern Italy -- and MY friends in America tell me that one of the most popular recent movies about Italy was shot all around Verona, sending everybody into a swoon. (Shakespeare was really taken with the notion that northern Italy was the real Italy).

There is a stereotypical notion of Italy being all about pizza and red-sauce spaghetti, nothing but sunshine and lemons and jolly loudmouths and the rituals of the Catholic Church -- so much so, that many areas of Tuscany that really have little truck with that now have incorporated it into their local culture to attract the tourist trade. And the funny thing is, when you tell people, "Oh? You want THAT real Italy? Go to Napoli" , they shrink in fear and a million other tourist posters will race in to make sure that person is steered right back onto the Tourist Track Tuscany plus Venice plus other snapshot friendly places where no Italian is needed, all seen through the windshield of a car, or from the terrace of an apartment rental.

I don't know what kind of trip you could later take to Italy that would incorporate "all the biggies". Whose "biggies"? Do Rick Steves tourists, stampeding to le Cinque Terre, ever set foot in Mantova? Apparently the Amalfi coast is a MUST SEE BIGGIE in a lot of people's minds. Some even go back year after year! It's a beautiful vacation spot, but it is wall-to-wall foreigners clinging to a very safe and easy vacation infrastructure, the fewer surprises the better as far as they're concerned.

But I've nothing against Cologne. Never been.

PS, Puppe:

How did it end up that you've ended up convinced that wanting to experience the reality of a foreign country, not the popular foreign tourist sights, is "perverse"? I think I know. (I actually watch people around here browbeat people who say they prefer to get off the beaten track.) But I encourage you to think again! No matter when or where you go in Italy, I hope you are coming to be in Italy. It's a wonderful place. Don't miss it while you're here! ;-)

Zeppole, thanks for your mind-stretching comments. The only reason I want to experience the "real Italy" is because I have little time or money to waste. The reason I love Germany is that I have enjoyed the out-of-the-way places and the people I have met. Maybe I should apply that same theory to Italy! I'm grateful for your comments.

The train will limit your choices considerably.
Basically everything is out of the way, except for those few places all the tourists gather. They are few and always the same places! They are good for watching other tourists, some like that a lot.

Been to Italy a zillion times, since I was a small child. Didn't see most of the "sights" because of the tourist masses.
Didn't miss a thing!

Like pasta, hate clams, hate pasta with clams who were my most dreadful Italian experience as a small child. (Did I mention, I love pasta!) Liked the bread, the watermelons and the sun at the beach. Did you know that eating watermelons at the beach is a perfect thing to do compared to eating them inside your room (If you're a child, that is)

logos999: cool...so cool...

How odd for someone to think that northern Italy is not the "real" Italy. Northern Italy is our favorite part of Italy - we'd far rather be in Milan, Turin, Bergamo, the Lakes, Piemonte (Piedmont), and the Trento/Trentino than down south.

That's like saying Neuchâtel, Biel, Solothurn and Aarau aren't "really" Swiss because they're not alpine villages.