OK, I am older and I have crossed the Atlantic many times (too many to know the number) and I still have not seen everything. In fact, I still have not been to Lisbon,Barcelona, Nice, Stockholm or Prague. They are still--LOL--on my list.

I did a crazy 6 week Eurail trip when I was 24 that included London-Edinburgh-Rome-Florence-Lucerne/Zurich-Vienna-Paris-Amsterdam-Copenhagen and back to London. I never did that again, although I loved every minute of my first Europe experience.

Now, I vacation in Europe principally through home exchanges and stay in one place. I would never stay in any location less than 4 days under any circumstances as the rigor of packing and unpacking gets old quickly.

I do not care that you live in Houston. Think Houston without air conditioning and that is what you will face in Spain, southern France and Italy in the summer. If you are on a budget tour, you will sweat it out every night in your hotel room. That is not a vacation; that is misery.

So, my answer to this itinerary is that, yes, you are nuts. You will spend far too much time on trains and you haven't even considered the epic journeys you will make on trains. Nice to Vienna is going to take you easily 18 hours assuming good connections. I got news for you: Unless you plan to get a regular sleeper, your chances of actually sleeping on the train might be remote. Who wants to get to their destination feeling miserable? AND, the train might not be airconditioned and it might be hot.

So, I would say that you are nuts. Stay in Paris a week and then travel around France, Belgium and Switzerland for the rest of the time. Leave the other places to the future. You WILL go back because you will never get to see everything.

You do need to decide whether you want to do a forced march or a vacation. No matter how you do it, you will not see everything.

As to Eurail passes, I have this to say: He who has a Eurail pass will get to see the many train stations in the large cities of Europe. However, he who has a Eurail pass will never stay in any of the large cities of Europe long enough to find out what any of them look like.

Now you decide.

Yes, LoveItaly, I have received so much valuable information here I don't even know where to begin! But I am so glad I posted: except for experiencing something yourself, there's no better to learn than from a whole bunch of people who've been there and done that already!

Of course, now I'm a little scared to cut it all up, because I had it so perfectly jiggled with the transportation from one city to another and the whole thing will fall like dominoes and I'll have to try to plan this all over again LOL!!!

It's reassuring to hear yet another person say that they find train rides relaxing. I really think that I will too!

So I have absolutely no idea where to begin LOL! I suppose I could cut Stockholm and make sure I cross the bridge for a day trip to Malmo while in Copenhagen, so at least I would get the taste of Sweden that way, even if it's not quite the same.

Anyone have any suggestions on what else I could cut (or if I should replace with something that would be more convenient)? If I'm so historically-minded, maybe cutting Amsterdam too would be best (even though it makes me very sad to think about!)...

FauxSteMarie - whoops we posted at the same time!

Oh gosh, I would not have taken the train for any of those long trips (again, save for the Barcelona to Nice leg). Any train that was more than 5-6 hours long, I found a flight or reconsidered the route. I found flights for all of those longer legs, did extensive research of the low-cost airlines, etc. And, I'm not the type who would be able to sleep in an overnight train, so I didn't even consider that option for just a minute - that I KNOW would ruin my vacation!

What my hopes are (and based on the research I've done seems possible at least for most of the trips) is to arrive in a new destination by mid-day so I'm not trying to find a hotel at night, and then take it easy that rest of the day. I don't really mind losing those days to traveling.

I'm not doing what I would consider myself a "budget traveler" - I'm looking up hotels that only have a/c in the warmer cities, and as far as I'm concerned, being cool while sleeping is the only time I care about being cool. I'm willing to pay more for it, so that's not so much my concern. I'm not going to give up my dream of seeing those places just because it'd be hot to walk around :D

Anyway I have come to terms with cutting at least two cities to extend my time to allow for downtime and day trips, so I guess I'm now beyond the point of thinking about that original plan and in the phase of cutting 2-3 cities off and going from there. :)

OK, you asked. I'd cut both Copenhagen and Stockholm from the mix. On one of your future trips (and there will be those) I'd do Scandinavia. First of all you haven't included Norway which far surpassed Sweden and Denmark as far as I'm concerned. Go back another time and do the Scandinavian countries, but for now add those 7 days to your other places.

Live and learn, and believe us, you will learn plenty bying trying to do all those cities.

Good luck, and happy switching hotels and rushing to catch planes, trains and busses. The memory of all those scenic transport terminals will last a lifetime.

Live and learn is right.

Just be sure to post a trip report so we can all get exhausted reading it after you get back.

I haven't been to Scandanavia either--except for Copenhagen. LOL.

Well the way I see it, I would rather live and learn and make mistakes than not do at all. :D If my biggest mistake in life is trying to see too much of Europe, I could probably do much worse :)

I think I have reached a compromise with myself - cut Stockholm and Nice, fly from Barcelona to Brussels (found a flight) and reverse that part of my trip (Belgium to Vienna leg), go from Vienna to Milan and take 2 nights to relax, recharge, and do nothing with a splurge at one of the lakes before I really plunge into the rest of Italy, adding the 6 nights (plus the entire day that the Barcelona/Nice train trip would have taken) throughout to give me 4 nights in most cities.

I've got to accept there's no such thing as a perfect trip so I gave in and gave up 2 cities that I'd love to see but are a bit out of the way and just follow my heart and refuse to budge on the rest. I'll be tired, but I think it'll be worth it. I feel a little heretic leaving out ALL of France, but I'll just have to vow to come back one day! But this will give me time to see the best of what the cities have to offer and also gives leeway for day trips or rest days, depending on how I feel on the day.

As for the report, I will be bringing my trusty laptop and digicam to document the entire thing. A few years ago I took a very intense 1-week trip to Washington DC and I wrote what I did on a pad of paper every night. It was cathartic and a way document it all, and I plan on doing the same for a trip of this magnitude.

I think this is a troll.

Few, if any, people would actually intend to do a crazy death march like this and then persist in spite of so much good advice to change the plan.

Why ask for advice if you don't intend to follow it? If this is a real trip, then the planner will soon see the error in her ways.

Ahhhh, so good to see the kind-hearted and helpful postings from cato once again.

MvK

How come you wish miss the beauty of Switzerland?

Interesting post, Cato. Of course if Debstah had returned to say that she had changed her mind and was now only going to do a total of two cities, you could have then posted that she is a troll because she went against the advice of all those above who advised her that there was nothing wrong with her original plan and she should go for it. So either way, I guess you would have been able to call her a troll?

By the way, it seems Debstah is taking advice and is making changes. What made you pick out the single post that you feel is the ONE she should follow?

Hi D,

>I will be bringing my trusty laptop and digicam to document the entire thing.

Your laptop will get heavier and heavier each day, unless it is stolen.

> A few years ago I took a very intense 1-week trip to Washington DC and I wrote what I did on __a pad of paper__ every night. It was cathartic and a way document it all, and I plan on doing the same for a trip of this magnitude.<

Excellent idea. Dump the computer and bring a pad of paper.

Dump the digicam and bring a compact or subcompact camera.

Looking forward to your trip report.

((I))

Kramer, your post was another amazing effort. Merry Christmas to you old friend.

Neo, I just think she is overplaying the "I'm stubborn and free to be me" part. But you know, maybe she really is for real.

cato,

Why didn't you just take the "rap" for OJ? OK, just kidding and thanks for the "amazing" comment. I'll take it as a compliment as I'm certain it was intended. Merry Christmas to you as well.

Still stinging from that Nov. 7th debacle?

Troll or not, it makes for amusing if not interesting reading. Even with "troll" posts, questions get asked/answered that some may be interested in reading.

MvK

Hi MvK

Still stinging from that Nov. 7th debacle?

Hey, one set of crooks in and one set out. Not much will change. 500 people picked at random from a phonebook could run the USA much better and at much less cost. SF phonebooks excluded.

Debstah -

I think you are amazing! You are certain where you want to go and you have researched how to get there. Now come the little details that pull it all together.

I also recommend Rick Steves' guidebooks, along with the Lonely Planet. He has some good insight for first-time Europe travel. (Although, a little pedantic for the more experienced - a reason many on this site do not like him.)

I also recommend that you read some of the older trip reports from this forum. I found that they really give you a "feel" for where you are going in a way that a guidebook cannot.

I am very envious - both of your trip and of the energy you possess in order to accomplish it. I sincerely hope you will allow us to help you plan it by asking questions and then share with us when you return.

Congratulations on the accomplishment of your education. My daughter will be graduating from UC-Berkeley this spring and then faces another 6 years grad school. But she has already begun her travels with a trip to the UK last spring.

Best wishes,
Linda

cato,

Another thing that won't change is my enjoyment in reading this forum and the pleasure of traveling in Europe.

Debstah must have a high energy level, several folks I have worked with in the past have been so energetic it wore me out just to see them work! One of my best friends married a lady that just has to be active, doing something all the time and I think they would be very happy and successful in the travels the op has outlined here. Our 2004 adventure in Europe was too fast-paced for the many of regulars here yet I never wore down (well, not too much , anyway) and looked forward to each new day and destination with great anticipation and excitement as to what the day would bring.

Go for as much as you care to do, Debstah. The folks here will have many, many recommendations and some very good advice, take it but follow your heart and dreams. As many have stated before, you will return.

MvK

While I wouldn't do Debstah's trip, Debstah is free to do her own thing against any advice posted on this board. I can think the itinerary is nuts, but I am not Debstah. She is young and energetic. When I was young and energetic, I did my "all Europe in 5 weeks" trip and never did that again. So, I do understand where she is coming from--even if I advise against going there.

I would recommend leaving the laptop at home because it is just one other thing to schlep and worry about. The less you have to schlep and worry about, the better off you will be--which is why I always pack inexpensive clothing and NO valuable jewelry. You can always find an internet cafe if you must check email. I generally ignore email when I am on vacation. Maybe in a two week trip, I might do it once. Since I usually am faced with problems from the office, I am always sorry when I do. The only exception was my recent trip to Chile when I was trying to get a car repaired while I was away (It did get repaired) and I emailed furiously for a few days before going off line for the balance of the trip. For part of that time, I was out of reach of email. For the rest, I just decided that, if the car was repaired, fine, but it was too late to do anything about it at that point if it wasn't.

If you take a composition book, you can take notes and write up the trip later from the notes. Alternatively, I have seen some wonderful new lightweight laptops. I am waiting for the price to come down before buying one. This time they are really portable.

Faux Ste.Marie, you've left out the most important detail. After you finished that 5 week trip did you immediately know is was NOT the way to travel, or did you have a great time doing it at the time?

I guess I was a bit harsh. People are free to make thier own way. Young people do travel faster and with less depth.

But the collective advice here is pretty sound, and the forum has really helped me make very good use of my time and money.

I recommend spending more time in Florence. It's absolutely GORGEOUS. Stockholm is pretty cool too.

Isn't it funny how we all have different preferences? Actually I was thinking you have 3 days too much planned for Florence already, since you say you're not big into touristy things and museums.

Personally, I loved Florence and hated Rome. I won't go back to Rome. To me, it was a big, dirty, noisy, unfriendly city with very little charm. Really touristy. I found Florence to be charming, the people really friendly and helpful, and the food very good. The Uffizi Museum was fantastic even for someone who doesn't like museums. Our hotel room was large, lovely and really reasonable! Our flat in Rome was disgusting, smelly, noisy, and unfriendly. I guess my experience was much, much different.

Nessundorma/Neopatrick

Yeesh, this is what happens while I try to edit and cook for a Christmas party at the same time. Start making eggnog, sample eggnog, post, have vague disquieting thought, drink strong coffee, decide the eggnog sampling made me see one too many gentlemen in Verona, edit post, re-post, and find you two cats pounced on the Verona canary, or was it the third gentleman, before I'd even finished sprinkling the nutmeg on aforesaid eggnog, let alone edited. You were right, I stand corrected, or would have been if I'd refreshed the page and seen your posts. TWO Gentlemen, it was.

Now - what was the question again?

(P.S. guests depleted most of my wine stores. Still have plenty of eggnog though...)

...from the first post...

<< ...any tips on how I can do it the best or how I can adjust the plans to really get a taste of the best of Europe ... >>

While I did read later that Debstah has made (only?) one trip previously to (only?) London, this remark had _most_ of the sound of a first-time Europe traveler, who wants to spend months and "see" (get a little taste of) "all of Europe".

And I am not opposed to ALL longer trips to Europe...

... I just think that for _most_ <b><i>first</i></b>-time travelers, trips of too long a duration are less-than-ideal uses of time and money, and it leads to the thinking that &quot;I have been there&quot; and reduces the likelihood that you will want to go see that place, on your nth trip to Europe, when you have a whole new understanding of how to get what _you_ want, from a trip to Europe.

And I'll similarly take exception with the notion that...

&lt;&lt; If my biggest mistake in life is trying to see too much of Europe, I could probably do much worse... &gt;&gt;

I would say that taking a &quot;once-in-a-lifetime&quot; trip that results in your not returning to Europe for another decade or more, is potentially the greater mistake that you _could_ make.

&quot;... I just think that for _most_ first-time travelers, trips of too long a duration are less-than-ideal uses of time and money, and it leads to the thinking that &quot;I have been there&quot; and reduces the likelihood that you will want to go see that place, on your nth trip to Europe, when you have a whole new understanding of how to get what _you_ want, from a trip to Europe.&quot;


I'm sorry, but I simply fail to understand why someone's trip to Europe under such circumstances would logically make them NOT want to return or make them feel they have &quot;seen it&quot;. It seems much more logical to me that after a quick tasting of various places they would be far more likely to want to return. I'd be interested in how many people who first did such a &quot;whirlwind trip&quot; ended up returning to many of the places they had gotten a taste of rather then going back to Europe and ignoring those places because they had &quot;been there&quot; -- frankly I suspect very few!

My deficient explanation had two problems:

First, I failed to larify that a months long trip _can_ lead to a subsantial financial impact.. either debt... or depletion of savings not quickly replaced again. Thus, other big life expenses (buying a house or a newer car, having a baby, further education or career-building, illness or injury) result in the idea that Europe travel can wait for (many?) years becase &quot;we just scratched that itch substantially, back in 2007&quot;.

Second, I didn't define where &quot;there&quot; is, when I indicated that a first-time traveler might not return &quot;there&quot;. In Debstah's case... prhaps &quot;there&quot; will be Barcelona, or Portugal or Sweden... any one country/city/region where the planning was less than ideal, the exploration was satisfactory, yet really quite superficial, and that place becomes mentally &quot;checked off&quot;. Years later, the former first-time traveler thinks &quot;I know I didn't really even scratch the surface in Spain, but I did see La Sagrada Familia and Las Ramblas&quot;... and now I really want to go to Greece or Honduras or Egypt or Poland. So, Spain languishes on the shelf, for years, since &quot;I did kinda go there, once...&quot;

For what it's worth, my own first trip to Europe was six weeks, an organized bus-based trip to five countries in 1969, when I was 16. I didn't pay for it at all, and a shorter trip would not have been put on the agenda, as far as I know. It set the hook deeply, but 13 more years of school, three babies and first job meant that sixteen years elapsed before my second trip in 1985 (made posible, partly by my job).

I think that I am a lifetime Europe traveler (trips 3-23 in the past 21 years); I don't know how or if it might have turned out differently... if my first trip occurred in my twenties, paid by myself, with my own worktime/income reduced.

It's doable and at your age i did just this kind of trip a few times...that said you may scale it down a bit and enjoy it more and make plans to return to Europe if you like it. Seems like you're a novice European traveler assumedly going a lot by train - for such novice travelers trying to get a fix on questions like you ask here are some good resources: www.ricksteves.com has a site with lots of transportation options from trains to cheap flights, which you may mix in with a rail trip - like end up in Seville and then fly to the UK, etc. And Budget Europe has an excellent free European Planning &amp; Rail Guide that has a wealth of info for planning such a trip, especially a good primer on using the rail system - it's free at www.budgeteuropetravel.com and the site has some good info as well but i know of no other free guide that contains so many great tips. But Fodorites remain to me the best resource so don't feel shy about posting questions as there are always some Fodorites who are so expert on every arcane aspect of European travel it seems. Happy travels.

Hi Debstah - one tip I haven't read here for not waiting in line is to make reservations for the museums - especially the big ones like the Uffizi. Your hotel can probably handle that for you. Also, check the TI to see if there is a city pass that would include public transportation and museum admissions.

I too think you're trying to cover too many places, but it is your trip. I like riding the trains also but even a 4 hour train ride every few days can get boring. Sure, the scenery is sometimes nice but it can get boring. One thing I learned the hard way is that you lose at least 1/2 day every time you change towns - between packing, checking out, getting (early) to the airport/train station, the travel time, getting from the new airport/train station to the hotel, checking in, orienting yourself to the area, etc.

You had a suggestion about renting an apartment for 1 week each in 6 towns. I'm not sure that's what I would do, but I would consider staying in one place 4-5 nights and take a day trip or two from there. Saves the hassle of packing up and moving.

Congratulations on finishing school! You're lucky to be able to celebrate with a trip like this. Have fun!

..Deb isn't a troll just young. I am saying that as a complement! BUT Deb..from someone who is more seasoned (read older), I have concerns. My first trip without school or grownups was 4 months with no fixed itinerary in the precell phone travellers cheque era (and I am still amazed that my parents let their 21 year old daughter go but I was with 2 good friends and between the 3 of us we were fluent in 3 languages other than English and had a smattering of 2 others). We did not pre-book our rooms (and I do have stories to tell). This did mean that as the trip progressed we really slowed down and changed itinerary. If you pre-book, you will not be able to do so. It removes all flexability. In addition if you miss a connection, get the European version of Delhi belly ect, how will you deal with that and will it cost you? On a rapid multi stop tour you are really leaving your self open for this sort of problem. Secondly, you will loose at least half a day and up to a full day everytime you change hotel..it isn't just the flight times but transport from station to the hotel, finding the hotel, checking in ect...and it really adds up. As a suggestion (given that you won't have a car) and given that you are someone who sounds like they want to have things prebooked, pick 6 spots and do day trips..a chance to use apts for some of your stays, a chance to meet other travellers (not tourists) who may suggest some interesting day trips, and less chance of getting so behind on your travels that you end up loosing a lot of money on missed connections. Good luck on what I hope will be one of many trips!

To answer NeoPatrick's question about how I felt immediately after my 5 1/2 European haj when I was 22. Well, it was so long ago that I don't remember but I don't regret any of my trips. I don't, in fact, remember much these days. Ha ha! I did go at Europe as though I would never go again, but, of course, I did go again and still have not seen many of the places on Debstah's list.

I do remember that, flying home, I had exactly 25 cents in my pocket in the days way before ATM's. I flew to Boston and went directly to law school. I suppose a stop at a bank was mandatory, but I had some friends on the charter flight and perhaps one of them loaned me subway fare. I can't remember.

Debstah is young. If she wants a madcap trip, she should do what she wants and then she can come back and give others advice afterwards.