Larry- I happen to love Las Vegas for what it is, a cheap and lively diversion. As far as Branson is concerned, I haven't been, maybe when I retire. How about you? It's probably a fair bet that you like dropping $200 for a 5 oz piece of undercooked veal. Or maybe you enjoy the the smell of urine while walking with your partner along the romantic Seine...

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about what Paris is to them. I've only tried to illustrate what our trip was like for us.

This board gave us great advice, most of which we tried to take. We went with eyes wide open and in a positive frame of mind.

Yes, our apt. situation was a downer, but when we left in the morning, we were out to enjoy the day. We didn't expect anyone to bend over backwards for us, but we did expect a minimum dose of hospitality from those in the hospitality business. Regardless of the country or culture, that shouldn't be too much to ask.

It's interesting that more than a few of our friends told us similar horror stories upon our return (they deliberately didn't tell us before we left, so as not to color our views). Stories about not being seated when restaurants were almost completely empty (not a reservation or serving time thing), getting a dessert of canned fruit cocktail with their Prix Fixe meal...when other tables got tremendous looking desserts with the same dinner, etc etc.

As with anything, take my report with a grain of salt, you don't know me. But, do go with your eyes wide open and lower your expectations.

We loved our short stay in Annecy, at a lower end hotel. They couldn't have been nicer and the little town is gorgeous. We also like our stay in Beaulieu-sur-Mer, in the French Riviera. Again, a small chain hotel where they were more than pleasant. We also really liked our two nights in Normandy.

It's not the French, it's Paris.

PS: Class of 83

Just some last thoughts to messages that have been added since I posted yesterday. The con artist at the Metropolitan ticket machine approached us while we were looking at a wall map, under the guise of a friendly native trying to help out. We live near a major metropolitan area that recently expanded it's subway service to our community. We frequently find ourselves helping strangers figure out the ticket machines and maps, so it did not seem all that farfetched that someone would try to help us. Ironically, the only people who offered us help in Paris were all con artists using this same scam.

We didn't talk with the beggars, but they are persistant and one followed us down the street anyway. To the vendors we did just say "no" , if we said anything at all. To the people who caution me about talking to strangers - that's half the fun of travel. Until they invent a con artist detector, we'll have to just be cautious. Not talking to strangers would also mean blowing off the people who frequently ask us to take pictures for them. My husband took pictures for two groups of people in the first half hour we were in the Eiffel Tower. To refuse to do so would have been just childish and rude.

Our experiences in Paris were unlike any we've had anywhere else. Not in London, Chicago, New York, New Orleans, San Francisco, San Juan, Rome, Washington, etc. Other family members have travelled in Russia, China, Ireland, Argentina and Saudi. We are not the village idiots, we just haven't ever experienced the level of scams, beggars and general rot that we experienced in Paris. Such is life.

rippowam

I am so sorry to hear of your anticlimactic Paris trip. Frankly, the last time I was in Paris, I too was not overcome with the yern to hurry back. I would certainly choose it over London at gun point though.

The public urination thing is plain disgusting and has long been an issue for me when I go to Italy. My husband (Italian) can not bare listening to me yammer on about it. I just find it so unacceptable that I cannot shut up. Finally, someone else also finds it detestable. Hoo-raw!

Paris does have much to offer perhaps under different circumstances (apartment incident was uncalled for). I too recently had a London holiday DESTROYED by an apartment rental RIP OFF ARTIST. No fun! Do not give up on France. There is more to it then just Paris!

The public urination in France issue intrigues me. I once a few years ago actually thought about taking photos and doing one of those coffee-table-sytle picture books of guys urinating in public throughout France - by region, of course. Or maybe a French calendar, with a pee picture for each month of the year. I never actually noticed it in Paris or any other major city, but in the countryside, it's incredible how many times I've seen guys standing by the side of the road peeing in full view of passersby.

Maybe it wasn't such a bad idea. Want to send me your photos? I'll give full credits.

OK, I'll jump in on the pee-pee stories. First off, if I don't have a pee-pee story to tell after visiting Europe, my friends feel as if they are robbed. OK, so my friends are tweaked. :-)

Secondly, my first time in Paris in spring of 2001 I was walking with a friend through the edge of a park in Montmartre on the way up to Sacre Coeur. We were walking side by side and I noticed this lady up ahead. She had that slightly crazed homeless look and was mumbling to herself as she was squatting down next to a park bench peeing.

I was just a few feet in front of her as she stood and pulled up her fishnet pantyhose and I saw things I never dreamed, OK never had nightmares about seeing, on a public sidewalk. :-[

As I walked past she, in a drunken slurred French, was muttering that if men could do it in the street so could she.

Guess what? My friend right next to me never saw a thing. In fact I had to make him turn around and look at the puddle before he'd believe it happened.

St Cirq
I think you just may be on to something regarding your PEE PEE calendar. V. Good Idea! I wonder if you could get financial backing from the people who make DEPENDS.

I used to observe this behavior by men in New York, Chicago, and Boston, not so much recently however. I think men in this country have just become more discreet about their need, like cats, to mark their territory.

I just have to tell someone about something I saw on my last trip to Paris which was just last month. No it wasn't someone peeing in the street but was just as funny. While returning to my hotel in the 7 arr. about midnight I saw a homeless lady of about 60 years old preparing to sleep in a doorway on avenue de la Motte Picquet. She was covering her face with cold cream. Where else but Paris, fashion and beauty capital of the world would you see that?

Larry J

Funny? I think that is sad beyond belief.

To OBXgirl

Of Course it's sad!

I thought it obvious to everyone that being homeless is sad but despite her plight the lady still cares about her appearance. This kind of "funny" is not laughable funny; it's called irony.

Larry J

I know that in certain cities, if enough thimgs went wrong (even when they were my oen fault), I felt that the whole city was "against" me, and it really made me dislike the city.

Accomodation problems are the abolute worst for doing that to me...if you don't like where you are staying, and can't get a good night's sleep, that can completely kill your whole vacation. Also keep in mind rippowan was on his honeymoon--a noisy hotel room is really, really, not ideal.

That said, I love Paris and can't wait to go back. But there are certain Italian cities that I have no desire to ever visit again...for the pretty much the exact same reasons rippowam doesn't want to go back to Paris. But I know I need to give those cities another chance...there were certainly things I loved about them...maybe rippowam will someday give Paris another chance?

Of all the cities, for me Paris will always be the most romantic!! did you know? Each mayor of Paris tries to build a new building, comission one of the most famous contemporary architects, as sign of their time in the office. And most of them are between La Defense, and Park de la Villette, along the Seine. As in any big cities, and capital, people are running from one place to other, theu just cannot drop everything ,and expect to help the tourist. some of the tourists will get help, and other will not, as any tourist in New York. When I live in Paris, and if I went to them and told them I did not speak French, they were more than willing to help me. Two years ago our family went back to France, and we really enjoyed to see the city again, and be able to stroll in its streets. There are so many parcs, and streets with trees. There is Parc Monceau in the 7th arrondisement, or Butte de Chaumont, I believe in the 19th. I prefer any time the sandwich of Flo, than the fast-food of the chain restaurants. You can have really good crepes on the street. And if this was your first trip to Paris, why not have spent some dinners, in a traditional brasserie, and maybe one or two Michelin star restaurant, to see what is like la vraie cuisine francaise. I truly hope you give another chance to Paris. And maybe a suggestion, come back to the forum, and get some tips prior to the trip.

a note about the tree situation: the great christmas 1999 wind storm took down over 10,000 trees in paris and environs briefly closing down both bois, the luxembourg and portions of the champs elysses.

a monumental cleanup was required in the week prior to the millenium celebration. most of the trees have been replaced albeit with sapplings.

I have lived in NYC for my entire adult life (25 yrs) and have had a love affiar with it despite the urine smell in the subway, etc (you should have smelled it in the early 80's!). I also LOVE Paris. Yes I have had the occasional so-so meal and indifferent service, but I have had the same experinces in NYC. I also love Italy, especialy Venice. I don't know if I have just blocked out the negative aspects of city life after so many years, but I have never seen anyone urinating in public in either Italy or France, maybe I am just enthralled with the architecture, sights, and beauty and too busy with these things to either notice or care. Of course I feel badly that rippowam did not have a fabulous time on his honeymoon and I understand how the apartment switch could color the trip. I also feel like his trip report was very similar to friends I have who visit NYC and only go to the typical tourist spots (Times Square, Rockefeller Center, Greenwich Village, Statue of Liberty) and only experience crowds and smelly subways and street vendors. Sure those tourist spots have a place, but there is always so much more to enjoy in almost all cities than the standard bill of fare. I just hope that rippowam and his wife give Paris a second chance and are able to enjoy one of the most beautiful cities in the world.
I just have to add that I am always amazed at the outcry over noisy hotel rooms and apartments! That is city living! I always choose the large room with the view over the boulverds rather than the one with the quiet courtyard view. I know that that is a personal preference, but get over it. Also the issue of signage all in French, how silly to expect other countries to cater to us. I see tourists from all over the world in NYC every day and except for Chinese and Mexican restaurants (or high end French), I never see menus printed in another language. And as far as the street urination goes it is obviously cultural, many people in Europe also smell and have bad teeth (ride the subway in London and look at your fellow passengers). They think we are crazy for bathing every day and washing our clothes after one use. You just need to get past the fact that you are not going to a place just like the United States, if you wanted that you should go to Chicago or San Francisco.

To Ripp and Other Posters:

Well, Ripp's posting (and others) has prompted me to reply. Many of the posters made me laugh out loud!

I admit to being a "lurker" on the board for months prior to my France trip in June. I had intended to do a trip report and post it, but I had so many negative experiences that I decided against it. Mainly, this was due to two reasons: strikes (trains, museums, you name it!)and the heatwave which coincided with the beginning of our 3 week trip on June 1st.

A bit of background: I'm a travel agent and had recently completed the French Specialist course from the France Tourism Board, so I was combining business and pleasure. As Ripp said, I'm also "reasonably well travelled", speak a bit of French and consider myself open minded and open to new experiences.

Restaurants: I agree with Ripp about the vegetables and salads - there were a lack of both which was sorely missed. (Although our first night in Paris I had a goat cheese salad at Les Jardins St. Germain that was to die for!) The best food of the entire trip was at a B&B we stayed at in the Provence area run by a French/Belgian couple. It was during this stay that I finally got to experience something OTHER than French fries! France is supposed to be one of the gastronomic capitals of the world - can't they figure out anything to do with a potato other than deep fry it???

Dirt/Urination. I really didn't see any of that, thankfully, and as other posters have said, there are tons of other places in the world where you you can experience this. While I adore Italy, I probably miss alot of great things as I walk around Florence with my head down avoiding dog poop.

Service. We had good, we had bad. Didn't experience any behavior of being "passed over" because we were Americans.

Pickpockets. Nary a bad experience. I'd rate Italy or Spain far worse; but then I've had experiences there myself. In Paris last year, I had a client mugged on the Metro.

What I didn't learn from this Board, but found out on my trip:

Internet Cafes. Few and far between! Unlike most cities I've been to, Paris (and environs, where you'd expect a dearth of them) was sorely lacking. For example - we were in the 8th Ard. and were told that the closest place was in Monmartre! Not only that, did you know their keyboard is completely different? In most instances you buy a card, sit down, insert it, and then hunt and peck on the keyboard while a counter reminds you how much time is passing by (and most of them have those roller-ball type mouse thingies which I find hard to navigate).

Air Conditioning. I've travelled enough in Europe not to expect a/c everywhere I go, but there was not ONE restaurant we ate in that had it, which was a surprise. (and no, we didn't eat all our meals standing up at a snack bar):) Even when a/c is advertised, it's like they have a VERY VERY low setting that feels great in the first 3 minutes and then is non-existent afterwards. As we travelled south I noticed newer model cars must have had it, but the drivers had the windows open, so I guess they've aclimated?

Screens. I may start a company in Europe, although I understand that there is one company who is now installing screens for new homes being built in France and Italy. After leaving Paris we were headed for the Loire Valley, Bordeaux, Sarlat, Provence. As I mentioned, we arrived in Paris June 1st, at the beginning of the "unseasonable" weather (as we were told everywhere we went) and heading south, where it was only going to get hotter. To give you an idea, at our B&B in Sarlat, it was 85 degrees and humid at 10:30 PM. Naturally, we opened the shutters. I came home with 32 bug bites (which just shows you how upset I was that I actually counted them). :)

About the heat...apparently French women have willed themselves not to sweat. Had my French been better I would have asked how they do this. One of my images of Paris has to be this fashionable French matron in a lime green pantsuit, with shoes and bag to match no less, and the de rigeur SCARF around her neck looking cool as the proverbial cucumber, as I'm walking around with my red cheeks, hair plastered to my neck and sweat running in rivulets down my....well, you get the idea.

The Biggest Plus / Education of our Trip. No where did we encounter ANYONE who was rude. In fact, in many instances, we found very helpful, delightful French people. This was a biggie, as I had talked my husband into visiting France. We'd been to most of the French-based Caribbean islands with less than favorable experiences, so the whole "the French are rude" scenario was a concern. Yes, we did our "homework" and knew a bit of French (which didn't seem to make much difference in other areas we'd visited); so it was very nice to be welcomed and helped in our travels.

Will I go back? Well yes, most likely. The Tourism Board will be sponsoring trips for Specialists in 2004, and I know that France is the most visited country in Western Europe, so I'm hoping for a different perspective and experience this time. I'm hoping to visit Brittany or the Riveria for a comparison. With any luck at all, no freak heatwave and no strikes!

Regards,

Melodie

Melodie,
You make some interesting observations. Any comments on what you saw and did, where you stayed, how you travelled(car,train?) would also be welcome.
JoeG

Having visited Paris several times, I believe the original poster of this thread made some valid observations.

You will encounter rude Parisians - a lot more often than you will encounter rude New Yorkers, Pittsburgers or Tulsans. There are rude people everywhere, but the majority of them are French, and most of them are at CDG. Others will be found at department stores (clerks who ignore you for long stretches of time) and restaurants (Hello, I'd like to order lunch sometime before the dinner crowd arrives).

You will see some disgusting and illegal public behavior in Paris. While I haven't yet observed anyone urinating on the street, a teenager did masturbate right in front of me on the Metro (thanks for that experience, Marcel), and I've seen the Paris cops swoop down on miscreants on several occasions in Metro stations. And there's a lot of dog poop on the streets.

Otherwise, I enjoy visiting Paris. If you keep to yourself, don't expect much in the way of human decency (what do you expect of a people that rolled over to Hitler in 1940, and find no fault with Saddam Hussein?) and just want to see the sites, you'll do okay.

I find some of this just amazing. The person who spent 7 hours in Paris and has therefore decided that it is a safety hazard seems to be especially out of it. I assume that on the London tube you just left your wallets in the open since they don't have pickpockets or homeless people (SARCASM ALERT)

Let me tell you about my walk today at lunch.... I saw a man urinating, I was hit up for cash twice and saw several people drinking from paper bags! And where was I???? NOT PARIS, Nashville, TN. (And by the way there is one small park within several blocks of my office with about 10 tress, that's it on the tree front!)

Why do you seem to expect foreign cities to be so much cleaner and nicer then your own? Have some of you ever gone to your nearest big city? I guess that Paris is suppose to be like "Disney" cleaned up for the tourists.

Also, rule one of great resturants is they probably DON'T have an menu in both english and the local language.

So much of travel is luck. Every time we go to New York we get a parking ticket or our car towed. So I've become a leery traveler, and especially leery of a major trip to France a couple of Februarys ago. But luck was with us. The weather turned warm and the people followed suit. Everywhere we went it was as if central casting had set it up for our enjoyment, including a picturesque rally in Arles with protestors dresses as cows. Hopefully Rip will have better luck next time, if there is a next time.

I agree, guy. But one has to be "open" to luck in order to experience it.

This thread is a good example of "glass half-empty vs. glass half-full" thinking. Some people see negative before they see anything else and this doesn't change, no matter where you come from or what big city you've lived. I believe certain people attract bad luck.

The most ridiculous comments (funny, too) that stood out most are:

"Rodin Musuem: Good, not great."..."we are not art lovers"

"I was shocked at how bad the restaurants were"..."When I asked our waiter how to say 'well done'"

Based on these four statements alone, I'd say rippowam doesn't belong in France (or New York), and his biggest mistake (outside of writing this shameful, sensationalized thread) was that he bothered to go there in the first place. None of his comments on this thread deserve serious consideration.