London Paris
 

Hello everyone. We are considering a fall trip leaving New York Oct 8 to London, then Paris to New York on Oct 16th. I know it's a very short time frame for both, but that can't be helped. We need to travel during our kids fall break from school and they will miss a couple of school days as it is. We also have to fly into and out of Arizona to/from NY. I know this is convoluted, but we have miles we can use to get to NY and airfares were almost half as much from there to Europe.

My questions are as follows
We found a flight JFK to LGW with a one hour 20 min layover in Dublin on Air Lingus. How rushed will that be to make our connection ? We flew into Dublin a couple of years ago but I can't recall how crazy the airport was. Is that crazy to try to make that work? A similar scenario on the way back ,but flying out of CDG with a 2 hour layover Dublin which I am more comfortable with.
Second question
Any hotel suggestions for both places? We are a family of four ,two teenagers,two adults. We tend to like hotels for our first visit somewhere due to the availability of help at reception, maps , directions, recommendations. We would like to stay at $400 per night. Less would be even better.
Not sure what we want to do in London yet. Get a pint, and? Stonehenge would be wonderful,but since time is so short that's not likely.
Paris- the Louvre,see the Eiffel Tower( from a distance is fine) a beautiful garden, street market, flea market, get coffee and eat.

Third question
We want to take the train London to Paris. How early should we get tickets and how often do they run? I would imagine it's also a good idea to limit luggage?

Many thanks to any of those who take the time to respond and offer advice.

For the Eurostar to Paris: www.eurostar.com

Two or three trains an hour, and yes, you get better fares the earlier you book: start looking about three months out from your travel dates. And yes, you'll need to limit your luggage to what you can lug up to the carriage and on to the luggage rack at the end of the coach.

How old are the kids? If both are <u>under </u> 16 check the Premier Inn properties. Several in London and a few are in really good locations. They allow a family of 4 to stay in the same room for the cost of a double . . . but only if the children are 15yo or younger - and yes, they do check.

So if one of the children is 16+ you'd have to book two rooms and would be over your budget at the best-located ones.

Look at Citadines (in both cities really) - they are a chain of apartment hotels -- the amenities of a hotel w/ the space of a flat.

Quad rooms in Paris can be a little cramped, and will only have one full bathroom. If your teenagers are typical, you might think about booking two adjoining rooms, so everyone will be happier. You should start the hotel search in Paris very soon, since September is a very busy season - full of conventions, fashion shows, etc.
Citadines is a good choice if you intend to cook, but most hotels have minibars - you can ask for them to be emptied when you arrive.
If you look in the 11th, 5th and 12th arrondissements, prices will be less expensive and transportation by Metro just as convenient.

If you go to the official SNCF website, look for the calendar which lists prices. Then do a dummy booking to check for the lowest fares on any given day - fares change dramatically during rush hour and weekends, etc. Limiting luggage is a very good idea, since you'll have to handle it yourself and if you don't board your wagon first, there might not be much space.

>>Citadines is a good choice if you intend to cook,<<

I've stayed in Citadines (or similar aparthotes) several times and I don't think I've ever cooked a meal in one (other than a light breakfast). They can be a good option for the extra space w/o the expense of having to book two hotel rooms.

Janisj- unfortunately my son will be 16 and my daughter 15 at the time.Thank you for the suggestions on accommodations. I will look into Citadines. Which arrondissement is that in or is it kind of like Vrbo. Is $400 reasonable? That has been doable in other places, but we haven't had to book two rooms.

Patricklondon -Looking at Eurostar, the cheapest fare was $70 in October. Is that fare typical, high or a good deal?

Do Eurostar trains still check luggage - take it from you and let you retrieve it at the other end - used to at least for about $15 a bag - if so send your heavy luggage ahead perhaps.

Like fuzz says try slack days on Eurostar trains to get the most supply of cheaper tickets and when checking also check first class discounted tickets as at times they may not be much more than the cheapest available Standard (2nd) class ducat - if not much more go first class and enjoy a proper meal with wine or Champagne or whatever with it - included in price of first class tickets I think.

$70 is an OK fare but I'd wait to see if something cheaper came up - did you check lots of dates and times?

www.seat61.com has good info on Eurostar ticketing.

>>Patricklondon -Looking at Eurostar, the cheapest fare was $70 in October. Is that fare typical, high or a good deal?<<

That is very good . . . Those cheap fares will disappear as time passes. . .

>>$70 is an OK fare but I'd wait to see if something cheaper came up - did you check lots of dates and times?<<

Fares on Eurostar don't get cheaper -- they get more expensive as the date nears and the limited number of discounted seats are booked up.

>> I will look into Citadines. Which arrondissement is that in or is it kind of like Vrbo<<

Citadines are hotels -- only they consist of studio, 1 bdrm and 2 bdrm apartments instead of hotel rooms. So no, nothing at all like vrbo. There are several Citadines properties in both cities . . . Just like there are several Hiltons

Janisj- Thank you ? We will book Eurostar and check Citadines as soon as we have definitely made up our minds.
Our teenagers may decline to join us which suits us fine and would change available options. Although as a kid I would have never passed up a chance like that. If they can visit family , they may prefer to do that.

Oh - heck - if they don't want to go, don't force them, you'll have a HUGE choice of rooms if you only need to sleep two. Though IMO they'd be nuts to stay home . . . (there is a current thread on the USA Forum about 'surly teenagers' - the mother's description, not mine - not wanting to visit Los Angeles - kids sure have changed since I was one ;) )

I am not sure I understand your flight plans. I think you propose to fly direct from Phoenix to JFK on an early AM flight or from Tucson with an early AM one stop flight? Aer Lingus than has two flights out of JFK to DUB at 1730 and 2100 and they both have 3 hours plus layover in DUB before flying to LGW so there probably will be no problems connecting. In the event that you have an issue there are plenty of lights on Aer to LGW or LHR later in the day as long as you are on a Aer Lingus ticket all the way through to LON. No other problems on the way back except you come back into JFK late. I however do see several things to take into consideration. First, you will have two sets of tickets so if you miss your connection in JFK you have a nonrefundable fare and will have to purchase other tickets to/from Europe if you wish to continue. If you miss your connection on the way back you will need to another set of tickets to Arizona and possibly a hotel room. You therefore need to give yourself plenty of time in between these flights. Secondly this is an arduous flight itinerary with multiple stops and layovers which if I add things up correctly comes close to 30 hours of travel time or more from your home to your hotel in London. Your trip home is worse as you will come into JFK late in the day and will have to take a one stop red eye back to Arizona arriving Monday morning which kills another day. You will all be dog meat at the end of these travels. Finnair and BA have non stop flights to LON and from PAR to JFK for about $175 more which would make your travel time shorter and get you back to JFK in time to catch a flight back to Arizona later that day. Better yet would be to save the points for another trip and just buy one stop tickets from Arizona to/from LON/PAR which at this moment is running about $900 RT from Phoenix and about $1400 from Tucson. These fares however if you watch closely may dip in the future to a more affordable level.

For eurostar you are better looking for fares as soon as the tickets are available. Not sure if this is 90 days or 120 days out. But definitely the cheapest fares for first and the full fare can be 3 times the cheapest.

Also note that Immigration is done at the UK end so you need to arrive early to go through that ad still be early on the train to get room for your luggage.

Your kids don't want to go.. hmm.. party time me thinks.. lol My kids have never passed up a free trip.. and even liked travelling as teenagers..

Well if you have relatives that will keep them.. then look at this as a nice second honeymoon.. you can get a very nice hotel and enjoy yourselves more !

Eurostar.. buy tickets soon as dates set.. I have never seen them get cheaper closer to date .

And count on carrying your luggage everywhere yourself.

Mis- We would love to cut out the New York portion purely for exhaustion sake. Last I looked I did not see anything out of Phoenix open jaw in London / out Paris for less than 1250 apiece which is almost double a flight from New York. What airline did you see the $900 fare with? You are absolutely right the way home is grueling. We did it 2 years ago going to Ireland, but as I mentioned the trip to NY would be on points. As an example
Last time out
We flew nonstop Phoenix to NY on aThursday and stayed the night, also on points after enjoying a nice dinner.
The next night we flew to our European destination.
We reversed this on the way home. Yes, this way is a pill, but since we love to eat well, love New York and may need to book 2 rooms rather than one for our family, we need to save where we can. ��
My concern was the flight from New York to London I found has only a 1 hour 20 minute stopover to change flights in Dublin. I thought that might be too tight.
Janisj- I meant Thank you! Not. Thank you? I'm clearly a terrible typist.

Ny Traveler- Thanks for the heads up on immigration.

Any volunteers to keep my kids? No? Well maybe we'll make them come . Maybe we'll just offer up some cheap labor to anyone who will take them.

With security alerts at the highest level, it's a good idea to allow 1 hour in advance of your boarding time to get through security at Eurostar. Many times, I've been behind a large group who had problems of one kind or another. Better to be safe than sorry, and there's lots to occupy your time in the upstairs waiting lounge after security. Make sure to bring a pen and fill out your boarding pass as soon as you pass through the gates. You only have 20 mins to board, so you'll have to be organized and get a move on to find your wagon.

If Citadines is too expensive, you should check Adagio, which is a little less expensive. Google their official websites and you'll see all their locations and prices listed.

Or, if you don't need a kitchen, you should check booking.com and hotels.com for quad rooms. Often, you'll find good deals, here.

>>Or, if you don't need a kitchen, you should check booking.com and hotels.com for quad rooms. Often, you'll find good deals, here.<< . . . <u>especially</u> if you are willing to pre-pay non refundable. Sometimes there are real bargains on booking.com (hotels.com not so much IME/IMO)

Also try londontown.com

I've only slept in 2 hotels in London : Marylebone (close to Oxford street) very nice - about 250 £ each room - you need 2.

Premier Inn (in St Pancras) was a good one - good that you can't all sleep together : we had a family room for ourselves and the small one - it was cramped as it was. We paid about 180 € per room - exactly 200$ and reserved only a few days before - you may get a better deal.

In Paris I was recently in Citadines les Halles (4 rue des innocents, smack in the center) and I found it great (I was alone in an upgraded apartment... ) Anyway the tariff was 275€ per night for a quad room and I paid less than that.

We also slept in Elysees Union in a quad, ah no, a quinta room - we hhad there 2 bathrooms and a kitchen too. Less well situated but close to Eiffel Tower.

But if you want to get rid of your kids during the night, just book 2 rooms - plenty of nice hotels for less than 1400 RMB a night.

I disagree with Janisj on good bargains on hotels.com vs booking.com - I usually check both sites and end up with hotels.com as the prices are similar (if not identical) and hotels.com gives me one free night every 10 - so a 10% off on top of my booking.

Sorry, didn't see the enquiry about fares above.

It's possible Eurostar offers different fares depending on which country it thinks you're in. Looking at their UK website for early October, I see they are already offering the fares I would expect (£29 one-way for Standard, £84.50 for Standard Premier, which seems to offer a bit more space and table served refreshments, which to me hardly seems worth it for a two-hour journey - and astronomically high for Business flexibility).

But how you persuade their website you're in the UK is another matter.

I am currently living in Nice with two teenagers. I understand your preference for hotels but I can tell you that VRBO is SO much cheaper and more convenient for families. We have been to Paris a few different times with our kids.

1st-hotel on Rue Cler in the 7th(Grand Hotel Leveque) recommended in a guide book, inexpensive but cramped and towels you could see through but on a great market street with a crepe stand across the street

2nd- apartment in the 7th- space for all to sleep, kitchen so we could have coffee and a bite before heading out for the day and a washer/dryer combo

3rd-apartment in the 3rd(Marais) same as previous apartment just a really great neighborhood

If possible get Louvre tickets early or a guide- it is huge and confusing.
Musee d'Orsay is a favorite and open late on Thursdays, skip the line with the Paris pass. Lunch in Trocadero provides great views of the Eiffel Tower and better pictures. Jardin du Luxembourg is beautiful and a great afternoon- the Guignol puppet theatre is great no matter how old you and your kids are.
Bon Voyage!
http://provenanceal.blogspot.fr/2015...an-market.html
http://provenanceal.blogspot.fr/2015...at-leaves.html

Ebmcgriff- Although I prefer hotels for first time visits, I would consider Vrbo type situation except I believe our stays may be too short, 3 nights London, 4 nights Paris. We have used vrbo or homeaway several times in the U.S. always with lovely results. My 3 words of high school French are quite rusty and I have on occasion needed a translator for the Queen's English as well. Our accents and pronunciation are so terrible that I can't always understand them. : ) That can make for interesting challenges when unexpected circumstances arise like the time we locked all of the house keys inside the house on vacation. Mr. Bean would have been proud. It was a comedy of errors.

Any recommendations for which Citadines /Adagio properties to look at? I'm sure I'll be back with a post on that soon.

Anyone have any idea if an hour 20 is sufficient for the Dublin stopover? Do we need to go through a passport/ security check again or is it just finding the gate?

I don't know too much about London's situation - it seems that the city has taken steps to regulate short-stay rentals.

The situation in Paris is different, and changing rapidly. The majority of short-stay rentals are illegal, and the city is conducting investigations and fining owners - who are then forced to remove the apartment from the market. This could leave you with no place to stay, and the usual excuse will be "plumbing or construction problems". If you arrive before your unit is ready, you cannot drop your bags, but must carry everything with you until you can access the apartment. No fun if the weather's bad.
Most apartments are not large and many aren't that nice, unless you can afford more than you intend to spend.

The Citadines Saint-Germaine-des-Pres is right across the river from the Louvre, and has 2 room apartments available in September for under 400 EU. There is a fitness room, elevators, lounges with complimentary tea and coffee, laundry facilities, air-conditioning and a fully-equipped kitchen. It's a great central neighborhood, you can walk to most attractions from here, and transportation is convenient. Right around the corner is the Latin Quarter - a fascinating neighborhood. I booked a room for my in-laws here, and they were very happy. You'll probably appreciate the advice of the front desk staff, rather than being left to fend for yourself in an apartment.

Fuzzbucket- Love that I.d. Thanks for the specifics on Citadines. Do you happen to know if that area has restaurants, cafes, street or flea market near there? Easy access to metro(? If that's what it's called in Paris)
I had no idea about the apartment thing. Last time I looked there were tons of Paris apartments for a week stay. We're only there October 12- 17, so only 5 nights. Now I would be concerned about booking something like that even if we weren't leaning towards a hotel.

I think you are looking for airfares too soon for an October holiday. I just booked a week ago fares for SFO-CDG (NS) and return from LHR (NS) for $890 and considered SFO-LHR return OSL-SFO for $767 for late May to June. It would not surprise me if airfares are different in PHX but fares change almost everyday. There are many search engines but I use Kayak and look at multiple combinations of destinations and return options while selecting for number of stops, length of layover, airlines and times of departure and return. I do this on multiple days over weeks to find options that look good to me than check seating options before deciding on my flights. One can also set a price alert for possible future flights. If you are looking at specific open jaws it is easier as you are only looking for two possible destinations and return options.
In your case it would be PHX-LON and return PAR-PHX and vice versa.
I understand the concept of cost but your points are earned are probably worth between 1-2 cents a mile so your "free" cost of a flight to NYC is $250-$500 and you can always use it later. I suspect that you will be able to find one stop airfares on one ticket for less than $1000 RT if you watch the fares. The more airlines are involved, and more stops increase the chances of delay and loss of baggage and fatigue. Stopping for a night in NYC each way alleviates the risk of missing a flight but with the additional cost of transport to and from the airport in NYC and the loss of two days in Europe. IMHO you really don't have enough time to see either European destination city well in the time allotted so I would not waste time in NYC.
I have spent time in multiple Citadines in London, Paris, Barcelona and Tokyo and find them pretty reliable IKEA class accommodations that work reasonably for families on short visits. You have the options of two studios or a one bedroom with sofa bed or two bedrooms depending on the Citadines and the costs. Do join their frequent stay program for benefits like cheaper rates and sometimes breakfast. Longer stays are less expensive per night. We like having laundry machines on site and a kitchen as we usually do breakfast in and often do take out meals. Restaurants get a bit old and costly after awhile. There are three Citadines in London to consider, Trafalgar, Holborn and South Kensington. They all vary in price but Trafalgar tends to be the most expensive. Have stayed at the Trafalgar in a two bedroom which we found very dark. It was ok. We often stay at the Saint-Germaine Paris Citadines but it is the most expensive of all of the Paris branches except for new Louvre location. The Louvre location is more couples oriented and a bit upscale. We like the SG location as we tend to live off the Rue d'buci nearby. Do not like the Les Halles location, the Marais location tends to be much less expensive as are several others in Paris.

When we were looking at flights from NY, we stumbled across Norwegian airlines---much, much cheaper than any other airline. No idea about the AZ leg, but they fly to London and Paris direct and no up charge for not booking round trip.

Whoops. Just saw your other thread about Norwegian.

mjs- I appreciate your candid feedback and the input on Citadines locations.It is entirely possible that I am looking too early for fares, but I need to strike while the iron is hot. I have a tendency to put things off ( even fun things) when I start thinking about the cost etc. I use the playing with dates/ routes part to try to find the best deals as well and hopefully I will come up with a plan that works for us. I think I'll be able to add a day to our vacation. Still not enough time I know, but I'll take what I can get.

Cjar - yes, easy access to Metro. Yes, shops, restaurants, cafe are everywhere - the Latin Quarter is one of the liveliest areas in Paris, and you're very close to other interesting areas - only about a 15 - 20 minute stroll to the Marais, for example.

By "street markets", do you mean open-air food markets? There are 3 markets in the 6th arrondissement, operating two days a week or on Sunday.
Here is a list of all outdoor food markets in Paris, listed by arrondissement. Make sure to check the hours and days of operation:
http://chocolateandzucchini.com/paris-markets/

There are two flea markets, Marche aux Puces in the North of Paris - which operates mostly on Saturday and Sunday, and will take an entire day to see properly. The other is Vanves, located in the 14th arrondissement, open weekends from around 8 AM to 1 PM.

There were plenty of apartments available when you visited before. But that is no longer the case, as owners and agencies are playing cat-and-mouse with the Mayor's task force. Frankly, it's just not worth the trouble until the City finishes with their investigation, and presents an official list of legally-licensed apartments - which won't happen anytime soon. Until then, I'd stick to a hotel or apart'hotel.

You had better make your decision soon, since rooms will be booked up for October in both London and Paris, and you'll have to settle for something much more expensive.

FWIW, I've just arrived in Paris on the Eurostar and they have new rolling-stock since the last time I used them. Rather more luxurious in feel, deeper upholstery on the seats, higher headrests for privacy, and free wifi (except that its connection to the internet keeps dropping as it moves through various dead spots).

Patricklondon- Thanks for the update. I need to book our tickets soon I guess, but not sure with how to split the time between London/ Paris, leaning towards 3 nights London, 5 Paris.

Fuzzbucket- I started a thread asking about Paris Perfect because I wasn't sure if it was a corporate endeavor like Citidines and Adagio, but clearly from the responses it is a Paris/London version of VRBO so not legal. Can't wait to check out the flea market link and yes I meant open air food markets. Thank you.

Silly question- is there a pedestrian walkway to cross from Citidines to the Louvre or do you need to take public transport? We are hoping for nice weather and lots of walking. Overcast, cool days are ideal. We don't even mind some showers. Hopefully October will be perfect for us. I read temps average 40's - 60's in both London/ Paris at that time. Hopefully slightly less crowded too.

Take into consideration the jetlag/exhaustion at your arrival city. If you only allow 3 nights in London you will have a total usable time of less than 2.5 days. And the first day will probably be a washout for at least some of you.

On a multi-city trip I ALWAYS build in an 'extra' day/night in my first stop.

Plus London is truly enormous w/ the major sites spread over a much larger area. About 80% of Paris' main sites are w/i walking distance of each other.

Unless you are not terribly interested in London -- I'd do at least 5 nights there. When you get to Paris you will be totally acclimated and jet lag won't be an issue so you can hit the ground running.

>>Silly question- is there a pedestrian walkway to cross from Citidines to the Louvre or do you need to take public transport?<<

I'm not sure I understand the question -- the Citadines is barely 2 blocks from the Louvre (actually really just one long-ish block) -- I sure hope you aren't planning taking public transport for such short journeys. You will be walking a LOT in both cities.

For some reason we always get nailed with jetlag on the return trip and are pretty good on arrival. Excitement I think, but definitely something to consider. I'll need to do some more homework and see which city holds the most draw for all of us.

Cjar - the "pedestrian walkway" is called a "bridge" - head left along the river to Pont Neuf. Cross this bridge, turn left, and a 10 min stroll along the river will take you directly to the Louvre (enormous building, can't miss it). The staff will give you a map, but you should really download one (or find a guidebook) before you arrive, so you'll know where things are located. Same goes for London.

I would reverse the number of days between London and Paris - Paris is a walkable city, much more compact than London. The main attractions that most people want to see are located in a rectangle of about 2 x 4 miles, and are very easy to access by Metro or walking.

London is spread out all over the place, and so are its attractions. The public transportation system is very good here, but you can spend a lot of time getting to and fro - so I'd vote for a longer time in London.

If you don't speak French, you might consider flying into London, where the culture shock will be a little less daunting than in Paris.

fuzzbucket : >>the "pedestrian walkway" is called a "bridge" - head left along the river to Pont Neuf. Cross this bridge, turn left, and a 10 min stroll along the river will take you directly to the Louvre <<

I though we were talking about the Citadines Suites Louvre which is not across the river - no pont involved. It is on Rue de Richelieu very near the Louvre

>>I though<B><red>t</B></red> we were talking about . . . <<

Hee hee. Thanks for that bridge clarification. I just wasn't sure if Pont Neuf or any of the others allowed pedestrian traffic .

>>I just wasn't sure if Pont Neuf or any of the others allowed pedestrian traffic .<<

All bridges in central Paris have pedestrians (as do most bridges anywhere in Europe -- except some railway bridges and motorways - those sorts of things)