London - Opinions wanted - does it "feel" European?
 

I have been to around 15 different countries in Europe. The most exciting part to me is that the country feels "foreign"...the food is different, the atmosphere is different, the transit is different, etc. AND the language is different.

I have not been to England or the UK yet. In your opinion, does it feel any different from the other countries since the residents are speaking English? Does it feel as exciting as visiting another country where they do not speak English? My favorite spots have been the small countries or cities where the least number of people understand or speak English...like Bratislava and Siena and Burano. Lots of pointing and smiling.

FYI, we did go to Gibralta and it felt more like a Disney trip or a "pretend" foreign country.

So what is your opinion of English speaking foreign countries? Do they feel foreign enough to you?

You can go to London and have a very multicultural experience. As a very small example: one morning we had breakfast in a cafe where the Portuguese owner was speaking French to some customers. This was a Portuguese neighborhood, and children were playing outside on the sidewalk, with one holding a typical Portuguese sweet bun for his breakfast.

There are unlimited opportunities to immerse yourself in Indian or Arab or Southeast Asian culture or pretty well whatever you want.

For all the times I've been in London I never had any doubt that I wasn't in the United States. Perhaps your feeling stems partially from how your home environment compares with the places you have visited. To some people in the U.S., other places IN the U.S. feel "foreign" but for me, being "foreign" (enough) is not the primary consideration when I decide to travel to a particular place.

After reading your post, I feel you should NOT visit England if you think speaking English doesn't make it "foreign" enough for you! Silly!

I agree with Will. London is whatever you want it to be - it's a world city. It's British and European with some definite American influence, but it's also Indian, Jamaican, Pakistani, Lebanese, Chinese, Kenyan and so on. It's character is multicultural, molded by the British experience.

London does not feel as "foreign" to me. This is not b/c of the language. Although English is spoken, the accent and choice of words, etc., is one thing that actually helps make London feel different from the US. You'll even find yourself using aquiring the accent, if just in mimicry, during a stay there. To get that "foreign" feel while in the UK, get out of London and into smaller towns/villages. If this isn't possible, at least pop into a London pub with some history.

I think one reason so many Americans like the UK is it <i>does</i> feel foreign, yet we can still communicate! They drive on the left side, the streets are all higgly piggedly and there's so much that's very old. Go to the Old Bailey &amp; watch a trial with barristers in wigs. Take the tour bus &amp; see the Roman wall in London. Go to Westminster Abbey. No, we're not in Kansas! One sure sign I'm in Europe is that plaintiff wail of sirens from police/ambulances that's so...European.

Yes, it's as exciting as another country where they don't speak English. But if YOU prefer small countries or cities, then visit the English countryside. Go up north where you can't understand a word they say!

mclaurie - you are right on! As is everyone who says &quot;yes&quot; your question - applepie!

London is a cosmopolitan city - international like NY or Paris. People speak English, but with those wonderful accents I can't get enough of!

The history is obviously so much older than in America, the pub life is fun and different than in the US etc.

I had some of the best Indian food I have ever eaten in London, tried Lebanese food for the first time (excellent also). And then there's the whole &quot;driving on the left&quot; issue. I was in England for 2 weeks, and even at the end, when crossing a street in London, I would look down for the signs that told me which way to look before crossing the street!

Not as foreign to me as some others (like Prague, for example), but still, very different than the US. And wonderful!

Karen

London is in the part of Europe where English is spoken. English is a European language after all. Sure it &quot;feels&quot; European. Perhaps not quite as foreign as Slovakia but different enough for this North American to know I have crossed the pond.

I'm going to disagree with some of your respondents. If you go to all the things considered typical tourist stops in London and England I guarantee you, you will be hard pressed to find very much that is 'foreign'.

Many North American travellers who are travelling there for the first time feel obligated to hit the top ten/twenty/thirty spots (usually in three days or less) and all you are going to meet, hear, etc. are Americans or Canadians. That means avoiding Madame Tussaud's, the Lion King, Chicago, Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, McDonald's, the Hard Rock Cafe, Harrods etc.

If you are prepared to travel there and say you have not, for example, stood in line for three hours at the London Eye, I think you will discover, in London, the fascinating, cosmopolitan city some fodorites have discovered.

If you do a search on this board you will find some earlier questions that have been posted about different things to do in London. That's a good place to start. There's also lots of references here to really interesting cuisine choices - which means avoiding any restaurant named after an American city.

The fact that English is spoken will, logically, make it 'easier' for you to understand cognitively what you are experiencing. The great part about being somewhere where you don't understand the language is that you have to rely on all your senses to cope and that's what, for real travellers, makes the experience so exhilerating. It's the full works!

But there are places outside of London where you can experience some of this, I think. In parts of Wales and Cornwall, for example, you can find areas where the native language is almost exclusively spoken. Even better, detour to Ireland for a few days, to Galway or Donegal, where Gaelic is more common than English.

Explore small villages that are not on the tourist route, even within London you can stay in the surrounding suburbs and get a better sense of English culture. Watch some English television, read the Sunday papers, go to church, attend a horse race, a village fete, a rugby match, a game of cricket, attend a trial at the Old Bailey, see an English band perform at Wimbledon, go to some of the neighbourhood markets, talk someone into taking you through the Times office, a police station, the Bank of England.

I've taken a long time to say it, but I guess my point is, you'll probably find what you're looking for. Good luck.

As far as the language not being different...being from the Southern part of the U.S., I must admit I sometimes have trouble understanding the King's English. There has been times I felt I was listening to a foreign language. LOL

...and in spite of my previous post, I really do know how to speak----that last sentence should read &quot;there HAVE been times&quot;.

When I visited England, Scotland, and The Republic of Ireland it was only the English language which made them less &quot;foreign&quot; than the whole of Europe. I had a fantastic time in these English speaking places, as I did in all the other countries.

applepie remarks
&gt;...in Europe. The most exciting part to me is that the country feels &quot;foreign&quot;...the food is different, the atmosphere is different, the transit is different, etc. AND the language is different.&lt;

Yup. That's London all right. Remember, they don't speak American.

rickmav. Many thanks for that splendid and accurate list of tourist stuff: Madame Tussaud's, the Lion King, Chicago, Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, McDonald's, the Hard Rock Cafe, Harrods etc.

Ben Haines, London

I find it incredulous that one has been to &quot;...around 15 different countries in Europe.&quot; and has not been to England or the UK. Is this possible?
Aside from that, there is so more to appreciate and experience in a foreign country than the English language.
John

Do you mind if I butt in?

Like many Brits, I find the USA (but NY less than the rest) far more foreign than most of the rest of the world. And it's the language that does this.

In ordinary foreign countries, you miss at least 90% of what's going on. In a foreign country where you're fluent in the language, every engagement is potentially foreign.

But, as rickmav says, &quot;touristy&quot; things are least foreign of all (An American can see better choreographed toy soldiers at Radio City than outside Buckingham Palace). It's the stuff of everyday that's foreign: from the way the ticketseller greets you to the explanations you get about why things are allowed and things aren't.

For what it's worth, here's my list of things I can't find in the US: These aren't in anyone's &quot;must do's&quot; (some of them I'd pay good money to get away from). But they're different. And an American can interrogste them in a way they can't with foreign-language equivalents.
British radio. Above all, Radio4, and above all above all the Today programme (6.30-9)
Some London newspapers. The Sun, the Daily Mail and the Guardian have no real US equivalents. Nor is there really a US Private Eye, Spectator or New Statesman
The British TV Brits watch: above all Coronation Street, East Enders and Neighbours. Full ratings are in the Culture section of The Sunday Times each week: almost no US programmes get anywhere in the ratings, which are almost entirely UK (or Ozzie) programmes. Watch the current hits (and despair)
The programmes few Brits watch. Above all, Newsnight on BBC2 at 1030pm. If US interviewers behaved like that, they'd probably be indicted for unAmerican activity.
Anything to do with gambling (except casinos). A horse race, a greyhound race. You must visit a central London betting shop. Or, to kill any anglophilia you might have, an &quot;amusement&quot; arcade.
An international team game. If possible, an England v Oz/Windies/India/Pakistan cricket match or any England rugby match.
Don't just go to a beautiful church service. Go to an Anglican morning communion and hear the sermon. It'd be more typically British these days to go to Mass on Sunday or Friday Prayers, though Catholic and Muslim services vary little around around the world. But the empty pews in an Anglican church on a Sunday morning may strike many Americans as the most foreign thing they'll see.
Read the current best-sellers (Charts also in the Culture section of the Sunday Times)
Go to comedy clubs (see Time Out). If thin-skinned, stay silent when the comedians ask (endlessly) if there are any Americans in the audience. Tell yourself they do that to everyone. It's true.
Go to young people's clubs (also in Time Out)
Shop for clothes where Britkids shop. Oasis, Next, River Island, New Look, Monsoon.
Try restricting your diet to ready-made meals from Marks + Spencer and Indian and Chinese take-aways.
Don't go to the theatre
Consume eight pints of real beer at a sitting, then have a curry or a kebab.
Travel by real bus. By all means use the hop-on, hop off tourist buses for orientation, but then use only the buses. Most Londoners don't, but you'll engage more, and see more engagement.

Others will have better suggestions. My point is, that engagement with some of the 60 million of us will show how foreign we are. Warts and all. Doing the tourist circuit will do something quite different. And I'd doubt it's very &quot;foreign&quot;

My goodness yes! It is very much NOT like the US. It's like stepping into literature and history that goes back much farther than ours. The feel just walking down the street is different.

For those couple of people who ripped you about asking the question, pay no heed. I think it is a good question.

I was there in the 80s, but just for a couple of days, so I really cannot answer your question. I have wanted to go back, but everytime I start thinking of Europe I always choose another destination.

I think the trip I recently completed which did not include Great Britain makes me want to go to England and Scotland in the near future.

I met a of of Brits on this trip, and they were extremely friendly and told me about the places where they reside and different areas to explore.

I also picked up a really neat English history book that I read on the plane ride home. Each chapter is short, and really brings to life the history of the country and the significance it has played in world history. Since I love history, I look forward to visiting.

I do agree with an earlier poster, some of the people who I chatted with in London many years ago were harder to understand than someone speaking French.

So I guess my answer would be &quot;go.&quot;
((H))

My first trip to Europe, in 1979, was to England, Scotland, and Ireland and, compared to what I was used to in the U.S. up to then, they seemed postively exotic to me, even though I could understand the language...for the most part anyway :)

I haven't been back since and often wonder how these countries would seem now that all my subsequent visits have been to the Continent. I'm sure I'd enjoy them very much, but they also likely wouldn't seem as exotic as they did on that first trip.

Dr. Do Good, What is my nation? Please explain.

applepie,
go to scotland, their accent is so thick you probably won't know their speaking english.

applepie,
i went to London ten years ago near christmas. i had always wanted to go to new york. walking down the street in earls court during rush hour, i felt as though i had finally seen new york, but in a different country.
then, i woke up early in the mornings and ran through the city, over the bridge, to the local residential markets.
i went to an outdoor antique flea market, in the dead of winter. freezing i walked with the locals through the isles of antiques.
it was obvious that i was in a different country, amoung the locals, enjoying their city.
i am going back next week.
although, overcast skies and dreary weather is not my personal favorite, i cannot wait to get there!
are you going to pass up london from your lifetime experiences.

Note - the Dutch speak better English than the English.

I'm with zippo :)

England was our mother country -- so of course there will be a higher level of familiarity -- and we are a separate country now because we rejected some of what they were &quot;back then&quot;.

As for language -- the accent we associate with London is far from the only one -- we are used to the London accent from PBS and Alec Guiness movies -- but I remember being completely defeated by a Lancashire accent in a store in Canterbury :D

I find it interesting that the Londonm responders feel things such as Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and MacDonald's somehow makes the city feel like what? The US?

To me, that's like saying Phantom of the Opera and a french restaurant make New York feel like Paris..yeah, sure!

I never knew these places in London were so well-sustained by &quot;foreigners&quot; enough so that they remain viable, business-wise...but then again, you Londonites have your own very special &quot;institution&quot; that you keep supporting, don't you? That fabulous &quot;family&quot; living in Buck House and just up the road in the wonderful pile of &quot;old stones.&quot;

Applepie's post is the reason I would recccomend that most first-time visitors to Europe visit the UK first--it's foreign, it's European, but there is still a comfort attached to being in an environment where you can communicate.

Applepie, since you are already well past the &quot;foreign&quot;-ness by being to countries and places outside of many tourists's &quot;comfort&quot; zones, I would suggest you go to the UK when you want a relaxing, as opposed to exhilarating, vacation.

Go to Ireland to play golf, drink beer etc., go to London for the history of the castles and the Tower of London. But from what you described of what you've already seen, at this point, I don't think you'd get that same sense of foreign-ness.

I live in a German speaking country, and I look at the UK as a vacation from the rest of Europe because I can communicate clearly. It doesn't feel foreign to me at all--it's comforting and relaxing.

rickmav and ben -

Fear not - not all Americans hit those spots. I was in London in January for 10 days, and I did not go to any of the places rickmav mentioned except for a 1 hour stop at Harrod's food market. Nor did I wait in line for the London Eye.

&quot;Madame Tussaud's, the Lion King, Chicago, Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, McDonald's, the Hard Rock Cafe&quot; - these things are not London to me.

London to me was wandering the streets, visiting little pubs, and seeing historical (and yes, touristy) spots - the Tower, Westminster Abbey and St. Paul's etc.

I avoid &quot;American&quot;-type things when I am abroad, no matter what country!

Karen

This is a bit tangential, but I'm just wondering what makes Chitty Chitty Bang Bang so American. The original book was by Ian Fleming (yes, as in James Bond), and the composer, adapter, director, and cast are British, too. Is it American because so many American tourists go there? Wouldn't that make the Tower of London and the British Museum American, too?

London and England is nice but we much prefer going to other countries all over Europe.

London does feel European... now (it didn't ten or fifteen years ago). It's been heavily continentalised, without losing its Englishness, so the culture shock is not as big as it used to be for us Continentals (good food, expresso, people kissing each other ! ). Paradoxically, whereas the UK is not the warmest advocate of European integration, London is the de facto capital of Europe: you get 200 to 300 000 strong contingents (usually young professionals) of each of the main continental countries (Germany, Italy, Spain, France), plus a large Central European community. It is a bit to Europe what Miami is to Latin America: an extra muros business capital.

On the issue of whether speaking the same language (but with strong differences in accents and specialised vocabulary) makes it less exotic, I wouldn't agree. As a francophone, I find Quebec or francophone Africa very exciting, because it's the same language, but with so many different nuances, and applied to a cultural enviroment that's quite distinct from France's. But I also enjoy going to hispanic or lusophone countries for the more sensual pleasure of speaking and hearing Spanish or Portuguese, so each situation has got its pluses. That said, I must confess that I try to avoid countries where none of the above mentioned languages is at least a bit practiced, because I - probably wrongly - feel that I am missing a lot. That's my own little travel disability...