Legal apartments in Paris
Feb 15th, 2017, 04:41 AM
#21
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Choosing other dates (I have a bronchitis so I'm bored with more time than habitual on my hands) I found 12 apartments. Most with a view on Eiffel Tower. Out of threse 12 apts : 8 have AC. 75%. To be compared with my friends who live in apartments in Paris : 0%.
Then 4 don't accept children... 33%.
Living like a local... with a view on ET, with AC and with no kids.
But ok. I'm grumpy.
Then 4 don't accept children... 33%.
Living like a local... with a view on ET, with AC and with no kids.
But ok. I'm grumpy.
Feb 15th, 2017, 10:46 AM
#24
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Here we go again.
I just cant understand why visitors care with this issue. I am not saying it is one That should be ignored. But it should be left to local authorities.
Do I check if the hôtel owner pays social charges for his maids? If the guy washing the dishes in the restaurant has a working permit ? If the waiter will pay taxes for the tip I gave him ? If the polish guys That refurbish my apartment comply with the EU directive on mobile workers ?
No I dont because I dont know what is legal or not. I would not buy a Vuitton bag or cigarettes with Street sellers. The rest, I leave it to professionals, gendarmes or tax inspectors
I just cant understand why visitors care with this issue. I am not saying it is one That should be ignored. But it should be left to local authorities.
Do I check if the hôtel owner pays social charges for his maids? If the guy washing the dishes in the restaurant has a working permit ? If the waiter will pay taxes for the tip I gave him ? If the polish guys That refurbish my apartment comply with the EU directive on mobile workers ?
No I dont because I dont know what is legal or not. I would not buy a Vuitton bag or cigarettes with Street sellers. The rest, I leave it to professionals, gendarmes or tax inspectors
Feb 15th, 2017, 03:18 PM
#25
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rouelan-so you do make choices based on a social conscience when you don't buy fake goods!!
many of us feel the same when we know the information about other matters eg firms paying a living wage, companies that discriminate and many other reasons that people make choices. I feel its good to point out what is legal so we can make informed choices.
many of us feel the same when we know the information about other matters eg firms paying a living wage, companies that discriminate and many other reasons that people make choices. I feel its good to point out what is legal so we can make informed choices.
Feb 15th, 2017, 03:48 PM
#26
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<i> I feel its good to point out what is legal so we can make informed choices.</i>
If no one said anything about the current situation in reference to black market apartments in Paris, someone, who could became a victim of having his accommodations cancelled at the last minute, would certainly ask why no one has mentioned this.
rouelan - not everyone who posts on Fodors is a tourist. Some of us actually live in France, Paris specifically. English language travel forums tend to be slanted towards the interests and opinions of the tourist; but you should understand that in the vacation apartment situation, there are other forces at play as well; namely the citizens of Paris.
Most of the neighbors with whom I converse, really do not want uninvited strangers in their buildings. They really do not want tourists who are looking to save money by staying in an illegal apartment vs. staying in a hotel. They sincerely do not care if you have a <i>living like a local</i> experience or not. They want privacy and security.
Maybe this comes as a surprise to many posters, but it should not. Chances are that you would feel the same way.
Many of us here want nothing other than to let you know that there is another side to the vacation apartment question. You are always free to make up your own mind, to accept your own principles, to listen or ignore the warnings that many of us attempt to illustrate.
There are people who care about this issue; a lot of people. Unfortunately, most of them do not speak English and do not participate on the Fodors forums. For these people, the citizens of Paris, take a moment and think about how you would feel in their place. I should think that you would feel very much as they do.
If no one said anything about the current situation in reference to black market apartments in Paris, someone, who could became a victim of having his accommodations cancelled at the last minute, would certainly ask why no one has mentioned this.
rouelan - not everyone who posts on Fodors is a tourist. Some of us actually live in France, Paris specifically. English language travel forums tend to be slanted towards the interests and opinions of the tourist; but you should understand that in the vacation apartment situation, there are other forces at play as well; namely the citizens of Paris.
Most of the neighbors with whom I converse, really do not want uninvited strangers in their buildings. They really do not want tourists who are looking to save money by staying in an illegal apartment vs. staying in a hotel. They sincerely do not care if you have a <i>living like a local</i> experience or not. They want privacy and security.
Maybe this comes as a surprise to many posters, but it should not. Chances are that you would feel the same way.
Many of us here want nothing other than to let you know that there is another side to the vacation apartment question. You are always free to make up your own mind, to accept your own principles, to listen or ignore the warnings that many of us attempt to illustrate.
There are people who care about this issue; a lot of people. Unfortunately, most of them do not speak English and do not participate on the Fodors forums. For these people, the citizens of Paris, take a moment and think about how you would feel in their place. I should think that you would feel very much as they do.
Feb 15th, 2017, 05:00 PM
#27
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Nicely put, Sarastro. Paris isn't the only city to have outlawed short-term rentals. Both San Francisco and New York City have done likewise. I think it is incumbent on visitors (us) to respect the places we visit. For Paris (and other places which have outlawed short term rentals), that means staying in a hotel or an apart'hotel.
Feb 15th, 2017, 05:27 PM
#28
Entirely agree, Kathie. I have done a very few AirBnBs and have felt uncomfortable when encountering other residents of an apartment building. They are entitled to be upset at seing a stranger where one does not belong.
Feb 15th, 2017, 07:29 PM
#29
Even if one doesn't have a moral compass/doesn't care about respecting the laws in another country/city . . . They should at very least be worried about arriving at an illegal rental to find it pulled and having no recourse and no place to stay.
Feb 16th, 2017, 08:43 AM
#30
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Kathie, Paris has not outlawed short term rentals. There are rules for the do and dont. These rules are complex, far too Much for the visitor.
I only expect French authorities to enforce the Law and, if There is a risk That tourists would endure trouble because they unknowingly booked the wrong place, then they would be advised beforehand.
French authorities dont; they did not order airbnb site to shut down.
The day There are posters in CDG asking me to stay away from these rentals, I Will do. But now, the only warnings are about bringing fake goods and riding illegal taxis.
I only expect French authorities to enforce the Law and, if There is a risk That tourists would endure trouble because they unknowingly booked the wrong place, then they would be advised beforehand.
French authorities dont; they did not order airbnb site to shut down.
The day There are posters in CDG asking me to stay away from these rentals, I Will do. But now, the only warnings are about bringing fake goods and riding illegal taxis.
Feb 16th, 2017, 08:52 AM
#31
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sorry - I thought kerouac had posted a different site from the same source.
However, there is no guarantee that these are legal rentals, either.
It is just paid advertising, like any other agencies are allowed to do. They do not vouch for the legality of the rental unit.
In addition to what sarastro said, most residential apartment buildings have prohibited short-term rentals. This means that the residents who live in these buildings really do not want strangers staying in their buildings, period. Neighbors can be sued, if they break the regulations of the building, and tenants can be evicted on the spot.
I'd like to see a show of hands of all who promise that everything will go extremely well if you rent an apartment in Paris. If something does go wrong - a sudden cancellation - will you take responsibility for the people who are suddenly homeless?
I didn't think so.
However, there is no guarantee that these are legal rentals, either.
It is just paid advertising, like any other agencies are allowed to do. They do not vouch for the legality of the rental unit.
In addition to what sarastro said, most residential apartment buildings have prohibited short-term rentals. This means that the residents who live in these buildings really do not want strangers staying in their buildings, period. Neighbors can be sued, if they break the regulations of the building, and tenants can be evicted on the spot.
I'd like to see a show of hands of all who promise that everything will go extremely well if you rent an apartment in Paris. If something does go wrong - a sudden cancellation - will you take responsibility for the people who are suddenly homeless?
I didn't think so.
Feb 16th, 2017, 09:02 AM
#32
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<i>These rules are complex</i>
I am sorry to hear that you are confused by the rules rouelan. The rules are really not complex at all and there are basically only two of them. Legal apartments are those which are:
1. offered by an owner of his primary residence for a period not to exceed 120 days per year.
2. specifically approved by the city of which there are only several hundred in the city.
Many might think that the rules are rather simple actually.
I am sorry to hear that you are confused by the rules rouelan. The rules are really not complex at all and there are basically only two of them. Legal apartments are those which are:
1. offered by an owner of his primary residence for a period not to exceed 120 days per year.
2. specifically approved by the city of which there are only several hundred in the city.
Many might think that the rules are rather simple actually.
Feb 16th, 2017, 09:46 AM
#35
@rouelan - what makes you think the owner will tell the truth? Although I suppose now you could ask for the registration number. Simplest method is to follow the advice about apartment hotels until the situation stabilizes.
Feb 16th, 2017, 09:48 AM
#36
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Also I am scary of sites that are only in US. Nothing french there, no french translation.>>
Not sure what you mean but Parisperfect is not a US site. In fact, it is headquartered in London, the owners are a couple, one an American who has lived in London a long time, and one French (expat, I guess, if living in London). They also have a London Perfect website and an Italy Perfect website.
I would hope the French co-owner could write in French but you are missing the point of this website, their target market is solely Americans and British (in every country). That is why their schtick about "feeling like a Parisian", living like a local, blah blah is part of their advertising and why they are mainly in the 7th Arrondisement (full of rich British and American expats who like things in English). This is the irony of it, they are marketing to people who think living in the 7th and viewing the ET through their window and not speaking French is being an authentic Parisian.
Not sure what you mean but Parisperfect is not a US site. In fact, it is headquartered in London, the owners are a couple, one an American who has lived in London a long time, and one French (expat, I guess, if living in London). They also have a London Perfect website and an Italy Perfect website.
I would hope the French co-owner could write in French but you are missing the point of this website, their target market is solely Americans and British (in every country). That is why their schtick about "feeling like a Parisian", living like a local, blah blah is part of their advertising and why they are mainly in the 7th Arrondisement (full of rich British and American expats who like things in English). This is the irony of it, they are marketing to people who think living in the 7th and viewing the ET through their window and not speaking French is being an authentic Parisian.
Feb 16th, 2017, 09:51 AM
#38
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<i>I should have said : Difficult for a visitor to ensure if the rental is legal or not.</i>
roulan - I could not agree more. The city is well behind in making it obvious to the visitor what is and what is not legal.
However, as rule #2 applies to a statistically insignificant number of the tens of thousands of apartments in Paris, I hesitate to even mention it.
As for rule #1, when looking at pictures of available apartments look for family portraits on the walls, closets full of clothes, or available toothbrush and toothpaste sitting next to the sink.
These are the signs of a legally offered vacation apartment.
roulan - I could not agree more. The city is well behind in making it obvious to the visitor what is and what is not legal.
However, as rule #2 applies to a statistically insignificant number of the tens of thousands of apartments in Paris, I hesitate to even mention it.
As for rule #1, when looking at pictures of available apartments look for family portraits on the walls, closets full of clothes, or available toothbrush and toothpaste sitting next to the sink.
These are the signs of a legally offered vacation apartment.
Feb 16th, 2017, 09:56 AM
#39
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Sorry! I honestly didn't know, I had not heard anything about this prior to this thread.
I was renting from an agency that has rentals all over France, they just use airbnb for bookings. I can completely understand why neighbors may not want strangers around and I know one bad experience can ruin things for the rest of us.
I used to host couch surfers and loved my interaction with strangers from around the world. While we did not see a single local in our building when staying in Paris, we did while in Prague. A neighbor on the 3rd floor had to carry a stroller up and down the stairs every day. The boys would always offer to help when they saw her. By the end of our stay she would knock on our door and take the assistance when she could. Simply saying hello in passing makes a world of a difference.
While none of that justifies the illegal apartments, there are good people out there just looking for a nice place to stay. We certainly didn't save money in Paris by staying at the airbnb either. Had I known it was illegal... I may have not used them. but there are plenty of other people who don't know better taking advantage of it.
I was renting from an agency that has rentals all over France, they just use airbnb for bookings. I can completely understand why neighbors may not want strangers around and I know one bad experience can ruin things for the rest of us.
I used to host couch surfers and loved my interaction with strangers from around the world. While we did not see a single local in our building when staying in Paris, we did while in Prague. A neighbor on the 3rd floor had to carry a stroller up and down the stairs every day. The boys would always offer to help when they saw her. By the end of our stay she would knock on our door and take the assistance when she could. Simply saying hello in passing makes a world of a difference.
While none of that justifies the illegal apartments, there are good people out there just looking for a nice place to stay. We certainly didn't save money in Paris by staying at the airbnb either. Had I known it was illegal... I may have not used them. but there are plenty of other people who don't know better taking advantage of it.
Feb 16th, 2017, 10:22 AM
#40
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So now I'm supposed to research every corporation's tax dodging schemes to determine if I buy the product? If I buy a tax scheming corporations product, I'm part of the problem too, I guess.
Is there a website or something that will allow me to insure that every purchase I make doesn't have some illegal transaction? for example, I am aware of several commercial buildings in the Dallas area that were part of a complex money laundering scheme. How should I feel if I purchased a service from one of the companies that rented a space in the building - and ergo became a part of the laundering money sheme - should I feel guilty because at the base of all of it was an illegal transaction that I didn't diligently find first?
Or should I buy the product and hope that my lack of diligence not put me in prison or make me scatter the streets of Paris looking for alternative lodging?
Is there a website or something that will allow me to insure that every purchase I make doesn't have some illegal transaction? for example, I am aware of several commercial buildings in the Dallas area that were part of a complex money laundering scheme. How should I feel if I purchased a service from one of the companies that rented a space in the building - and ergo became a part of the laundering money sheme - should I feel guilty because at the base of all of it was an illegal transaction that I didn't diligently find first?
Or should I buy the product and hope that my lack of diligence not put me in prison or make me scatter the streets of Paris looking for alternative lodging?
