kybourbon

Seaurchin - I do eat meat and last month in Italy I decided to try one of the croquettes (can't remember the Italian name but they are little fried balls of rice and other ingredients) every raves about. I was surprised when it was handed to me that it was not hot nor cold, but had a tad of a chill. It contained chicken and I decided it wouldn't be safe to eat and threw it away.

PalenQ

Starbucks was i think more popular when it was the rare coffeehouse to ban smoking

ditto for McDs and quick - folk went there to escape the haze.

I would not think the demise of traditional restaurants is at all due to smoking bans - perhaps shorter lunch hours - returning to work intoxicated being frowned upon, etc.

Anna1013

Since I have had food poisoning before, I have no idea why I never thought about what Kybourbon brought up! I now think about the ham & cheese sandwich and quiches that I had at patisseries and wonder how I never questioned them being left out.

Everyone always raves about grabbing these items for a cheap lunch - are the sandwiches at places like Pauls in refrigerated cases?

kerouac

<b>Statistics</b>

There are every year about 76 million foodborne illnesses in the United States (i.e. 26,000 cases for 100,000 inhabitants), 2 million in the United Kingdom (3,400 cases for 100,000 inhabitants) and 750,000 in France (1,210 cases for 100,000 inhabitants).

<b>In the United States</b>

In the United States, for 76 million foodborne illnesses (26,000 cases for 100,000 inhab.):
325,000 were hospitalised (111 per 100,000 inhab.);
5,000 people died (1.7 per 100,000 inhab.).
Source:
Food safety and foodborne illness (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs237/en/), WHO (http://www.who.int/)

<b>In France</b>

In France, for 750,000 cases (1,210 per 100,000 inhab.):
70,000 people consulted in the emergency department of an hospital (113 per 100,000 inhab.);
113,000 people were hospitalised (24 per 100,000 inhab.);
400 people died (0.1 per 100,000 inhab.).
The causes of the illness (toxic factor) are:
Causes of foodborne illness in France

Cause cases per year
1 salmonella
~8,000 cases (13 per 100,000 inhab.)
2 campylobacter
~3,000 cases (4.8 per 100,000 inhab.)
3 parasite
incl. toxoplasma
~500 cases (0.8 per 100,000 inhab.)
~400 cases (0.65 per 100,000 inhab.)
4 listeria
~300 cases (0.5 per 100,000 inhab.)
5 hepatitis A
~60 cases (0.1 per 100,000 inhab.)

The causes of death by foodborne illness are:
Causes of death by foodborne illness in France

Cause cases per year
1 salmonella
~300 cases (0.5 per 100,000 inhab.)
2 listeria
~80 cases (0.13 per 100,000 inhab.)
3 parasite
~37 cases (0.06 per 100,000 inhab.)
(toxoplasma in 95% of the cases)

4 campylobacter
~15 cases (0.02 per 100,000 inhab.)
5 hepatitis A
~2 cases (0.003 per 100,000 inhab.)

kerouac

I would say that 1.7 deaths by food poisoning per 100,000 inhabitants in the U.S. compared to 0.1 death per 100,000 inhabitants in France should be better food for thought than a Big Mac.

Padraig

kerouac wrote: &quot;I would say that 1.7 deaths by food poisoning per 100,000 inhabitants in the U.S. compared to 0.1 death per 100,000 inhabitants in France should be better food for thought than a Big Mac.&quot;

That does not prove that French hygiene is better than US hygiene. I could be that the French people have more robust antibodies and immune systems than do Americans.

We can't let the French off the hook too easily.

kerouac

You mean the writhing worms in their guts gobble up all of the bacteria before it can attack their digestive system?

Padraig

kerouac wrote: &quot;You mean the writhing worms in their guts gobble up all of the bacteria before it can attack their digestive system?&quot;

I'm all in favour of making science comprehensible to the non-specialist, so... yes.

bilboburgler

In Portugal you can have Mc White bean soup (ok it has a local name) and it is disgusting everywhere

kybourbon

I don't think France has the rules/regs in place that would result in accurate reporting of foodborne illness. The US is much more picky about reporting these types of things which is why their numbers are higher and it makes the news here whenever there are a few cases.

Padraig

kybourbon wrote: &quot;I don't think France has the rules/regs in place that would result in accurate reporting of foodborne illness.&quot;

Yeah, right. That explains it.

kerouac

I guess that's why the WHO ranked France #1 in health care in the world. Those na&iuml;ve boobs!

TPaxe

Whether you love junk food and drink chain corporations places (eg: McDonalds, Starbucks, Pomme de Pain, Quick, etc), everyone has a right to a choice. But please!! for anyone who loves coming to Paris, try to support the local places for quick eats. Otherwise we no longer will have any choices and just eat at chain restaurants controlled by so few.

Today was up in Montmartre near Places des Abbesses and had the best fougasse stuffed with green olives, bacon and cheese for less than Euro4, plus a juice. Sat in the gardens nearby and it was so good.

All the fresh foods in the boulangerie were made on the premises that morning, (little mom and pop place, can't remember the name) and by about 3 pm everything was sold. So there was no need for the food to go stale as it was bought so quickly during the lunch rush by the locals.

Can't agree more with Kerouc on the hygeine attention in France and the medical care!

PalenQ

Otherwise we no longer will have any choices and just eat at chain restaurants controlled by so few.&gt;

So these restaurants do not have enough local support that their existence only depends on tourists abandoning fast food?

If you restos are worthwhile they will not have to depend on tourists to survive

it's called the marketplace and i think your assumption that droves of tourists coming to Paris eat only at fast food is wrong - i'd bet the average tourist does indeed eat at local places like you do.

But i do resent someone telling me that i should spend a lot more money than i would at McDonalds (i just get coffee and perhaps a sundae) - and go to the next door cafe and spend much more for a coffee and any dessert.

Get off your high horse and quit dictating what others should do. Not everyone travels on an unlimited budget and even if i could afford regular cafes several times a day i still prefer the self-service and just being able to come in all wet, etc.

travelgourmet

<i>But please!! for anyone who loves coming to Paris, try to support the local places for quick eats. Otherwise we no longer will have any choices and just eat at chain restaurants controlled by so few.</i>

I don't think the typical tourist should be at all concerned about this. The only areas of a city where tourists will be able to materially impact the finances of a restaurant will be tourist-dominated areas. And, even then, no individual tourist will have a material impact and can't change the behavior of other tourists, so they shouldn't waste their time adjusting their preferences. The demand for retail/restaurant space in those areas is likely so high that any restaurant will need to be either high-volume or overpriced (or both), simply to pay the rent. Outside of tourist quarters, it will be locals that drive the profitability of a restaurant.

I say, eat where you want. If you want a local place, eat there. But frequenting &quot;local&quot; places because you are afraid of such restaurants going out of business isn't logical. They will either compete or they won't. The only restaurants likely to go out of business because of competition with McDonalds (or anyone else) will be the ones that are either not very good, or that have a concept/execution not suited to the location.

<i>All the fresh foods in the boulangerie were made on the premises that morning, (little mom and pop place, can't remember the name) and by about 3 pm everything was sold. So there was no need for the food to go stale as it was bought so quickly during the lunch rush by the locals.</i>

Which means much of that food would have sat around, post-prep, some 5-8 hours longer than the typical Big Mac at McDonald's. Contrary to popular belief, food does not sit around long and go stale at McDonald's - if it did, then the concept simply wouldn't work.

kybourbon

And if they are so dependent on tourists, how many of those tourists are getting food poisoning that is never reported? WHO stats are only as good as what is being turned over to them by various governments.

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; All the fresh foods in the boulangerie were made on the premises that morning, (little mom and pop place, can't remember the name) and by about 3 pm everything was sold. So there was no need for the food to go stale as it was bought so quickly during the lunch rush by the locals.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

So prepared food that sits from early morning until 3 pm unrefrigerated is not growing bacteria? You better notify all the scientists out there that they are wrong!

Padraig

kybourbon wrote: &quot;And if they are so dependent on tourists, how many of those tourists are getting food poisoning that is never reported?&quot;

About four per annum, mostly Americans with delicate constitutions (kerouac gave us figures that indicate that Americans are more prone to suffer from food poisoning).

SeaUrchin

Not scientifically speaking, but I think that people's systems adapt to certain eating habits.

I used to have a live-in Filipino cook and she would purposely leave chicken and other meat dishes out all night on the table to cure. We were wondering why we were getting upset stomachs all the time until we noticed.

I have Asian friends who can easily tolerate food that is left at room temp for long periods and I just can't and neither can my own family.

Could it be the same as our systems developing to tolerate fresh water in different locales&gt; such as Mexicans drinking their own water and the same water making foreigners sick?

It could be that we eat things prepared so differently when we are in a different locale than we would at home. I got so sick last time I was in Paris by eating a very good dish of chicken with a lukewarm sauce on it. At home I would have insisted on it being heated up, but I was so in love with the restaurant in Paris I just went ahead and ate it. Not so wise. My friend and I were sick for two days from that and we didn't report it to anyone. No one knew but us.

travelgourmet

<i>kerouac gave us figures that indicate that Americans are more prone to suffer from food poisoning</i>

No he didn't. He gave us figures that indicate Americans report more cases of food poisoning. This could be because they are more prone to suffer from food poisoning, but it could also indicate increased reporting.

Personally, I suspect it has much more to do with reporting than anything else. Americans are largely a nation of hypochondriac whiners. And more ready access to doctors for acute conditions means that Americans are far more likely to seek out medical assistance. In much of Europe, on the other hand, where getting in to see a doctor is more onerous, I suspect most cases of food poisoning go unreported.

Virtually all cases of food poisoning result in nothing more than a couple of days spent praying to the porcelain god. There is precious little a doctor can do, other than recommend you stay hydrated. Accordingly, reported cases are likely skewed by the likelihood that the affected will actually go to the doctor.

jsmith

Wouldn't the lawyer be first?