Lakes and Alps itinerary Help
 

My husband and I are looking forward to three weeks in northern Italy and Switzerland, mid- September into early October and could use some on the ground advice planning the itinerary,
I'd like to spend 3 days in Venice, and approximately four each in Lake Garda (north end to allow access to hiking in the Dolomites), lake maggiore/ Ticino area, the Bernese Oberland and the Engadine. We are looking forward to the hiking and exploring small communitities and the countryside; Venice will be the only "big" city on this trip.

It sounds as though we will be better off on trains in Switzerland and with a car in Italy. I'd like to include one or more of the panoramic train trips (glacier or Bernina express) and can't decide whether Venice- Garda- Ticino- Bernese Oberland - Engadine is the best plan or whether we should zig zag and do Venice- Garda (Bernina express) Engadine- Bernese Oberland to Ticino or some other variation. We start from London and leave from Frankfurt ( we have 3 additional travel days to recover from jet lag and connect with these airports) so we are flexible where we start and end our Italy/ Switzerland adventure.

Many thanks in advance for your suggestions! The train/ car combination makes the planning complicated.

Hi santafesisters,

I would do: Venice - Ticino - Garda - Bernina Express - Engadin - Oberland.

It seems to be that Garda, Ticino, and Tirano (to start the Bernina Express) are all sorta clustered in the area around Milan. Going from Engadin - Oberland - Ticino or Ticino - Oberland - Engadin both are zig-zagging south to north to south again.

Have fun as you plan!

s

I agree with swandav -- and would add that the "Bernini Express" route from Tirana north to the area around Pontresina / St.Moritz is absolutely breathtaking! Note that you don't need to take the "named" tourist trains -- you can take the regional trains by sbb that use the same tracks with greater ease and convenience. JMO.

I would do it in this order:

Venice - Garda - Ticino - Engadine - Bernese Oberland

The northern end of Lake Garda is still quite a distance from the Dolomites, going hiking there will be a logistical challenge.

Coming from Ticino you can either take the scenic Palm Express bus (Lugano - St. Moritz) or the scenic Bernina train route (a town along lake Como - Tirano - St. Moritz) to the Engadine. In the former case stay in Sils-Maria and do a day trip Bernina route from there later. In the latter case stay in Pontresina.

If you want to hike in what you call Dolomites, you must go to the northernmost end of Lake Garda. With this "Dolomites" choice, the itinerary is set automatically:

Venice - Peschiera - boat or bus - Riva - bus - Trento - Bolzano (hiking area) - train - Merano (hiking area) - train - Malles - bus - Zernez (Engadine) - train - Pontresina (Engadine) - train - Bernina - Tirano - bus - Lugano (Ticino) - train - Locarno/Lake Maggiore - train - Domdodossola - Spiez/Interlaken (Bernese Oberland)- train - Basel - Frankfurt airport.

Ah, so many choices. Thank you everyone. Sounds as though I need to add a couple of days to drive into the Dolomites, maybe Alta Badia and fewer days at lake Garda or perhaps skip Garda altogether since we will have time on the lakes in Ticino?

In my opinion, the hiking trails along the Lake Garda - Engadin itinerary are art least as beautiful as those in Alta Badia.
But go to Alta Badia if you like to go into this area. The Venice - Engadin drive would get longer this way, unless you skip Lake Garda.

In any case a Swiss Pass will be a good deal for you if taking the Bernina Express (to me Europe's most awesomely scenic railway) and then going to the Berner Oberland and back from there to Italy - and there is a novel way to go between the Bernina/Engadine area to the Berner Oberland and Interlaken - take the Glacier Express or regular train over its route from St Moritz/Pontresina to Andermatt - then take a scenic Swiss postal bus thru the Grimsel (?) Pass to Meringen then a train to Interlaken-Ost for trains into the hills to Grindelwald, Wengen, Lauterbrunnen and Murren.

For lots of good stuff on Swiss trains and passes check www.swisstravelsystem.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.

On the Bernina Pass rail line there are regular trains that go more frequently than the official Bernina Express and you an just hop on an off these with a valid ticket or pass.

It's nice to spend a whole day out on the Bernina Pass Railway so you can get off at summit stations and do some hikes to nearby glaciers, etc or at other stations and do the same. Most folks just take it without getting off and though that is great you do not really feel the awesomeness of this area unless you get out and say walk from one station to another.

Sit on the west side of the Bernina Pass trains for the best views.

Great advice, as always. Looking forward to the train trips, love the idea of taking regular trains where we can get out and explore along the way. We will buy that Swiss Pass. At this point I think we will skip the Dolomites proper and stick with the northern lake Garda area.

Many thanks for all the tips. On to the next level of planning.

If you buy a flexipass then you should also think about buying in conjunction with it a half-off Half-Fare Card that will give you 50% off on every train and gondola - to use in between your days on the flexipass - during days when you are using a day on a pass you get 50% off but nothing on in between days - so the half-off Half-Fare Card (only available with a Swiss Flexipass) could be a good deal too- especially if taking expensive lifts or trains like the Jungfrujoch train.

Thanks PalenQ, the rail pass options are overwhelming especially for a car oriented Californian!

Riva to Switzerland (Engadin):
bus to Rovereto - train to Bolzano - Merano - Malles.
Fare for the Italian leg: about 25 EUR.
The Swiss Travel Pass is valid from Malles onwards:
Malles - Mustair - Zernez - St. Moritz/Pontresina or Davos...

Thanks PalenQ, the rail pass options are overwhelming especially for a car oriented Californian!>

Understood by California has nearly no trains but in Switzerland they say no town is more than 5 miles of so from a train line - very dense system and you can sit back and drink up the scenery - drivers can't as they must watch the road - but since Alpine areas are off limits to cars trains make sense if going largely to them.

Thanks PalenQ, the rail pass options are overwhelming especially for a car oriented Californian!>

Well IMO you cannot go wrong with a Swiss Flexipass or Consecutive day pass given that you are visiting two far removed areas and also have to go from and to the Italian border - with the consecutive-day pass you need not buy a half-off Half-Fare Card (a special only sold in conjunction with a Swiss Flexipass TMK) because you would get 50% off with it for its whole duration of things it does not cover in full - but a flexipass may be cheaper (valid for one-month you chose the number of flexible travel days - 3 is the minimum and simply fill in one of three boxes on the pass the day you want it to be valid - your long-distance days and then with the half-off Half-Fare Card you get 50% off practically everything that moves in Switzerland (except cows!)

If you bought that without thinking it would be a good deal for you I would think.

and you can drive too - just that in the two Alpine areas you are going to cars are useless as they much be parked at paid parking lot (though some hotels may pay for it?) - OK but then just price a full-priced Half-Fare Card perhaps if you plan to take enough pricey lifts to make it pay off and in the Jungfrau Region just a trip on the Jungfraujoch Railway at half off would just about make the pass pay off - the world's most expensive railway no doubt at way over $100 return.

So if you want to drive do so - it would make your trips from Italy and back easier by keeping the car - some alpine roads over passes can be slow-going however and a bit nerve-racking for some but driving over these passes is a thrill too especially if the driver likes to drive - make sure your car's horn is working.

I think driving the whole way and a Half-Off Pass(bought locally at any station) could be the best way for you - or easiest way anyway since you are going back to Italy - if not I'd say ditch the car and take the trains.

Cheers!

Engadine- Bernese Oberland>

this could be a great exciting drive as you follow the course of the Glacier Express railway to Andermatt and then spiral up the Grimsel Pass (may have mixed up name) to the summit - always something interesting there - a huge damn in this case you can walk on - and then spiral hairpin turning down to Meiringen and then drive along the shores of Lake Brienz to Interlaken.

If someone loves to drive they will love doing this!

You can also take public transit over this route (buses only run when passes are not blocked by snow - usually running from June thru September I think)- cars of course can't do it either if the pass is blocked by snow) by taking the train from St Moritz to Andermatt - then the shuttle train down to Goschenen - then a Swiss Postal bus to Meiringen and then train along the lake to Interlaken-Ost, jumping off point for Grindelwald, Lauterbrunnen Wengen, etc. That is quite a splendid sceneic day either by your own car or public transportation.

I've driven many Alpine passes and they are a real adventure - I'd say keep your car is the driver is not daunted by hairpin turns on passes!

The Meiringen bound buses start at Andermatt

Yes I knew that but for some reason thought Goschenen, where the buses also stop en route to Meiringen.

My driver is a former NYC cab driver and a regular on CA route 1 along the north coast with curves and precipitous drops into the Pacific, he will love the drive you describe! Great idea to keep the car and use the trains, that way we have the best of both. Thanks, not sure we would have considered this option.

I love to drive! That said, I would <b>hate</b> to be asked to drive in Switzerland -- the scenery in much of that country is absolutely breathtaking -- and <b>no</b> driver can take full advantage of the opportunity to savor those views! Public transportation (whether by train, bus, boat, or whatever) is incredibly convenient in Switzerland and there are few places that can't be reached without it. IMO, the chance to savor some of those landscapes is once-in-a-lifetime, while the opportunities to sit back and enjoy such dramatic scenery <u>without</u> a car are far fewer just about anywhere else. JMO.

Palen:
of course: Susten Pass buses stop at Goeschenen too (where are train connections to Zurich, Lucerne and Bellinzona - Locarno).
From June 25th until Oc 9th, there are the following choices:
Glacier Express: St. Moritz dp 9.57 - Andermatt ar 14.50
PostBuses:
Andermatt dp 15.34 - Furka Pass - Grimsel Pass - Meiringen ar 18.34; 35 min stop at Gletsch
Andermatt dp 15.59 - Susten Pass - Meiringen ar 18.10; 20 min stop at Stein Glacier