Just Returned from Russia: Dress, Food, General Info and More
Sep 25th, 2007, 07:20 AM
#41
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Wow, this thread exploded while I was gone over the weekend. Most of the questions have been well answered but I will toss in my 2 cents.
My “rules for drinking” were generally for acquaintances, friends or family. If some random person offers you a drink, you are under no obligations and I wouldn’t hesitate to turn them down. Also, with regards to the drinking on the street, aside from the sad visual, I never saw any rude or belligerent behavior. There was one episode on the St. Pete subway at night were a drunk guy was staring at a woman across the car, but it never went beyond that. I did not mean to paint a picture of Russia like some giant fraternity house where you step over beer bottles everywhere you go—the streets there are generally cleaner than in the states—I was just trying to point out some cultural differences.
In regards to the flights, we took KLM from SFO to Amsterdam and then to Moscow with only a two hour layover. From St. Pete, we took Rossiya to Amsterdam and then KLM back to SFO. Aside from the fact that I am ~6’3” and do not fit in coach seats, the flights were great. I found KLM service to be some of the best ever and was relieved to see that the Rossiya aircraft was in excellent shape. I cant speak for all of the Russian carriers, but Rossiya was at least on par with any western carrier. One of the best part about our flights were the short layovers though, only a couple of hours each time. If you are really curious, I can get the flight numbers.
My in-laws were definitely a bit nervous to return to Russia. Because they are Jewish, when they left the USSR, their passports were confiscated and they received a hearty, “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.” When I talked to my father in law, he described the general scorn that was directed at them and was genuinely concerned about how much had changed. I will try to cover this more in the “culture” post which will probably be the most challenging, but things have definitely changed. We went to the market that my in-laws use to shop at near their old apt in Minsk. They pointed out where they use to stand in line but when we went inside it looked like any other small supermarket. There are still a lot of issues boiling under the surface, but the freeing of the economy has done wonders both economically and socially.
The police presence is visible to say the least and I will cover it in depth later.
My “rules for drinking” were generally for acquaintances, friends or family. If some random person offers you a drink, you are under no obligations and I wouldn’t hesitate to turn them down. Also, with regards to the drinking on the street, aside from the sad visual, I never saw any rude or belligerent behavior. There was one episode on the St. Pete subway at night were a drunk guy was staring at a woman across the car, but it never went beyond that. I did not mean to paint a picture of Russia like some giant fraternity house where you step over beer bottles everywhere you go—the streets there are generally cleaner than in the states—I was just trying to point out some cultural differences.
In regards to the flights, we took KLM from SFO to Amsterdam and then to Moscow with only a two hour layover. From St. Pete, we took Rossiya to Amsterdam and then KLM back to SFO. Aside from the fact that I am ~6’3” and do not fit in coach seats, the flights were great. I found KLM service to be some of the best ever and was relieved to see that the Rossiya aircraft was in excellent shape. I cant speak for all of the Russian carriers, but Rossiya was at least on par with any western carrier. One of the best part about our flights were the short layovers though, only a couple of hours each time. If you are really curious, I can get the flight numbers.
My in-laws were definitely a bit nervous to return to Russia. Because they are Jewish, when they left the USSR, their passports were confiscated and they received a hearty, “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.” When I talked to my father in law, he described the general scorn that was directed at them and was genuinely concerned about how much had changed. I will try to cover this more in the “culture” post which will probably be the most challenging, but things have definitely changed. We went to the market that my in-laws use to shop at near their old apt in Minsk. They pointed out where they use to stand in line but when we went inside it looked like any other small supermarket. There are still a lot of issues boiling under the surface, but the freeing of the economy has done wonders both economically and socially.
The police presence is visible to say the least and I will cover it in depth later.
Sep 25th, 2007, 01:46 PM
#42
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Great info,thanks,ksose.
We have traveled extensively and are interested in going to Russia also.
How would a spring visit work?
Has anyone without Russian language skills managed on their own, or is a guide a good bet.
Thanks,
CCF
We have traveled extensively and are interested in going to Russia also.
How would a spring visit work?
Has anyone without Russian language skills managed on their own, or is a guide a good bet.
Thanks,
CCF
Sep 25th, 2007, 03:04 PM
#43
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I would definitely try to pick up a Russian phrasebook and learn to sound out the alphabet. Guides are a good bet at historic sites, but you want to be able to eat or find the bathroom without an intermediary.
If you are curious, stay tuned for my language post!
If you are curious, stay tuned for my language post!
Sep 25th, 2007, 03:47 PM
#45
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6. Culture
This seems to be what everyone is curious about so I will get to it. Keep in mind before you read this, I am trying to sum up a thousand year old culture from the physically largest and possibly most diverse country (or federation) on the planet. So don’t string me up if I get something wrong. Likewise, feel free to jump in as it sounds like a lot of you have very personal experiences to call on.
This is a quote from a website I found which I (and my wife’s family) think does a great job of explaining the national culture/mindset. I can’t remember where I got it from so my apologies if these are your words.
“Russia (was) always hindered by autocratic governments that alternatively smothered dissent and innovation and then, alarmed at the backwardness of the country, attempted to impose top-down reforms and development -- which then would be resisted by a national conservatism that the government in its phase of being threatened by change would have loved. So Russia gets beaten up for progressing and then beaten up for not progressing. This more or less is still going on, as Soviet and post-Soviet governments are caught in the same dilemmas, desires, and fears as earlier.”
The history of Russia is one of repeated destruction by foreign power and bold progress by often murderous autocrats who flattened anyone, family included, in their way. This has lead to a general populace that, in my opinion, harbors an innate suspicion of outsiders and a love/fear relationship with there own government which in turn has no trust in its own populace. How does this manifest itself to the everyday traveler? For one, with a lack of helpfulness. Often times, when you ask a salesperson or just someone on the street a question (in Russian), you might get the answer, but it will come with a look on their face that says, “I’ll tell you, but don’t think that I want to!” Customs officers especially and perhaps symbolically, welcome you and say farewell with a solid dose of rudeness. My sister-in-law, a native born, bestowed upon Russia the honor of “World’s Surliest Country”. The counterpoint to this is that friends and family will bend over backwards to help one and other. Relatives whom I had barely heard of rolled out the red carpet for our family, taking days off of work, arranging transportation and throwing parties. Getting over that initial hump with an outsider can be difficult, but once you make acquaintances with someone, they can be a great friend and asset.
The aforementioned distrust of the people by the government leads to large police and military presence. In Belarus, I was told (and believe) that ¼ of the men between 20 and 40 are police. We saw policemen everywhere, just standing around looking at people. In the US, if you see a cop on the street, they are cruising or responding to calls. There, they just stand there and if you start thinking about it, it feels kind of eerie. I felt like a kid on the playground in elementary school when all the teachers stood around watching you. The US police forces are not without their corrupt and power hungry, but in general, they are there to help you. People fear them when they are speeding or otherwise breaking the law. In Belarus, and to a lesser extent Russia, a lot of people fear the authorities all the time. We always watched ourselves and spoke Russian when within earshot of police and never had a problem.
The final point of Russian culture is what I call, for lack of a better word, “showiness”. It is my opinion that due to the prolonged unavailability of basic goods, it is a sign of prosperity to show what you have. If you go to a Russian family dinner, the dining table will most likely be covered in food by the time you get there. “Look,” they are saying, “there is no shortage of food here.” Jewelry, clothing and accessories are typically maxed out. Cars have become (too) common in Moscow and huge luxury sedans and SUV’s like Hummers, X5’s and Land Cruisers roam the streets in greater numbers than most any suburban California town. While American culture may look upon these things as tacky, they are accepted signs of progress and success. You have to remember that 20 years ago, you had to stock up on toilet paper at the store because they might not have it for a while.
One wholly inappropriate version of showiness is the mesh shirt…on a fat man. You have to see it to believe it, but make sure you do so outside of meal times. If you feel up to it, I have photographic proof. Revolting.
Interesting Cultural Side Notes:
- Russians, generally of the older generation, don’t smile in posed pictures. I asked a bunch of people and no one could really explain why.
- People don’t really sit on the ground. I think this may be related to showing someone the bottom of your feet (also very taboo) but it’s usually the park bench or nothing. We experimented with our Belarusian friend and got inquisitive looks from kids in the park.
- People smoke all day, everywhere. Prepare for your clothes and hair to smell like cigarette smoke at the end of the day, especially if you go to a restaurant. It’s worse than in any part of Europe that I have been to and unavoidable.
-Text messaging is HUGE. We went to a ballet (I heard no English in the crowd) and throughout the performance, people’s faces would light up as they cranked out important messages.
- In the US, the military (Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force) and intelligence service (CIA) are not allowed to operate within the homeland, unless by special order. There are no such restrictions in Russia. The follow-on to the KGB, the FSB has free reign, especially since Putin took the reigns. Also, you will see soldiers used quite frequently for security and in our case, en masse to close off streets that needed to be cleaned following Moscow Day celebrations.
This seems to be what everyone is curious about so I will get to it. Keep in mind before you read this, I am trying to sum up a thousand year old culture from the physically largest and possibly most diverse country (or federation) on the planet. So don’t string me up if I get something wrong. Likewise, feel free to jump in as it sounds like a lot of you have very personal experiences to call on.
This is a quote from a website I found which I (and my wife’s family) think does a great job of explaining the national culture/mindset. I can’t remember where I got it from so my apologies if these are your words.
“Russia (was) always hindered by autocratic governments that alternatively smothered dissent and innovation and then, alarmed at the backwardness of the country, attempted to impose top-down reforms and development -- which then would be resisted by a national conservatism that the government in its phase of being threatened by change would have loved. So Russia gets beaten up for progressing and then beaten up for not progressing. This more or less is still going on, as Soviet and post-Soviet governments are caught in the same dilemmas, desires, and fears as earlier.”
The history of Russia is one of repeated destruction by foreign power and bold progress by often murderous autocrats who flattened anyone, family included, in their way. This has lead to a general populace that, in my opinion, harbors an innate suspicion of outsiders and a love/fear relationship with there own government which in turn has no trust in its own populace. How does this manifest itself to the everyday traveler? For one, with a lack of helpfulness. Often times, when you ask a salesperson or just someone on the street a question (in Russian), you might get the answer, but it will come with a look on their face that says, “I’ll tell you, but don’t think that I want to!” Customs officers especially and perhaps symbolically, welcome you and say farewell with a solid dose of rudeness. My sister-in-law, a native born, bestowed upon Russia the honor of “World’s Surliest Country”. The counterpoint to this is that friends and family will bend over backwards to help one and other. Relatives whom I had barely heard of rolled out the red carpet for our family, taking days off of work, arranging transportation and throwing parties. Getting over that initial hump with an outsider can be difficult, but once you make acquaintances with someone, they can be a great friend and asset.
The aforementioned distrust of the people by the government leads to large police and military presence. In Belarus, I was told (and believe) that ¼ of the men between 20 and 40 are police. We saw policemen everywhere, just standing around looking at people. In the US, if you see a cop on the street, they are cruising or responding to calls. There, they just stand there and if you start thinking about it, it feels kind of eerie. I felt like a kid on the playground in elementary school when all the teachers stood around watching you. The US police forces are not without their corrupt and power hungry, but in general, they are there to help you. People fear them when they are speeding or otherwise breaking the law. In Belarus, and to a lesser extent Russia, a lot of people fear the authorities all the time. We always watched ourselves and spoke Russian when within earshot of police and never had a problem.
The final point of Russian culture is what I call, for lack of a better word, “showiness”. It is my opinion that due to the prolonged unavailability of basic goods, it is a sign of prosperity to show what you have. If you go to a Russian family dinner, the dining table will most likely be covered in food by the time you get there. “Look,” they are saying, “there is no shortage of food here.” Jewelry, clothing and accessories are typically maxed out. Cars have become (too) common in Moscow and huge luxury sedans and SUV’s like Hummers, X5’s and Land Cruisers roam the streets in greater numbers than most any suburban California town. While American culture may look upon these things as tacky, they are accepted signs of progress and success. You have to remember that 20 years ago, you had to stock up on toilet paper at the store because they might not have it for a while.
One wholly inappropriate version of showiness is the mesh shirt…on a fat man. You have to see it to believe it, but make sure you do so outside of meal times. If you feel up to it, I have photographic proof. Revolting.
Interesting Cultural Side Notes:
- Russians, generally of the older generation, don’t smile in posed pictures. I asked a bunch of people and no one could really explain why.
- People don’t really sit on the ground. I think this may be related to showing someone the bottom of your feet (also very taboo) but it’s usually the park bench or nothing. We experimented with our Belarusian friend and got inquisitive looks from kids in the park.
- People smoke all day, everywhere. Prepare for your clothes and hair to smell like cigarette smoke at the end of the day, especially if you go to a restaurant. It’s worse than in any part of Europe that I have been to and unavoidable.
-Text messaging is HUGE. We went to a ballet (I heard no English in the crowd) and throughout the performance, people’s faces would light up as they cranked out important messages.
- In the US, the military (Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force) and intelligence service (CIA) are not allowed to operate within the homeland, unless by special order. There are no such restrictions in Russia. The follow-on to the KGB, the FSB has free reign, especially since Putin took the reigns. Also, you will see soldiers used quite frequently for security and in our case, en masse to close off streets that needed to be cleaned following Moscow Day celebrations.
Sep 25th, 2007, 07:39 PM
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Ksose,
I am thrilled to find your very informative post on Russia. Have to be in Moscow mid October,2007 for 2 business days. Then I have a choice to spend weekend there or fly on to Bucharest, my next biz destination. Very intrigued by Moscow but have reservations about safety and spending weekend there. I will be with 2 other colleagues, but both also American and first-timers to Moscow. What are your thoughts on how safe the city is? Areas to avoid? Also appreciate your thoughts on flying Aeroflot (inter-Europe), not transatlantic. They seem to have the best prices and direct flights in and out of Moscow. Other carriers have connection but Aeroflot had bad rap of being one of most unreliable airlines in past. Not sure what their safety record is. Perhaps it has changed.
I am thrilled to find your very informative post on Russia. Have to be in Moscow mid October,2007 for 2 business days. Then I have a choice to spend weekend there or fly on to Bucharest, my next biz destination. Very intrigued by Moscow but have reservations about safety and spending weekend there. I will be with 2 other colleagues, but both also American and first-timers to Moscow. What are your thoughts on how safe the city is? Areas to avoid? Also appreciate your thoughts on flying Aeroflot (inter-Europe), not transatlantic. They seem to have the best prices and direct flights in and out of Moscow. Other carriers have connection but Aeroflot had bad rap of being one of most unreliable airlines in past. Not sure what their safety record is. Perhaps it has changed.
Sep 27th, 2007, 02:24 PM
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"You have to remember that 20 years ago, you had to stock up on toilet paper at the store because they might not have it for a while." - wrong, at least for Belarus. 20 years ago there was NO toilet paper. We used old newspapers (they don't "color" your hands or bottoms like Americans) or cheap school notebooks the price was 2 kopecks, like 2 cents here.
"I think this may be related to showing someone the bottom of your feet (also very taboo)" - 38 years in Belarus, 4 years in Moscow college - never heard anything regarding bottom of the feet! Are you sure? I heard it about Italians, don't know if true.
"I think this may be related to showing someone the bottom of your feet (also very taboo)" - 38 years in Belarus, 4 years in Moscow college - never heard anything regarding bottom of the feet! Are you sure? I heard it about Italians, don't know if true.
Sep 27th, 2007, 04:09 PM
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FainaAgain,
Those claims come from two stories. One, from my wife's family, who heard that it was hard to find toilette paper in the West. They apparently packed quite a lot before leaving and felt like idiots later. With regards to the feet thing, I heard about a business deal where an American company went to Russia to negotiate. When things were pretty much all sorted out, the American leaned back and put his feet up. The deal was called off. I have more faith in the first story than the second--I was just trying to connect the dots about why no one sits on the ground. Given your experience, I happy to defer to you.
Why no marble benches for women?
Those claims come from two stories. One, from my wife's family, who heard that it was hard to find toilette paper in the West. They apparently packed quite a lot before leaving and felt like idiots later. With regards to the feet thing, I heard about a business deal where an American company went to Russia to negotiate. When things were pretty much all sorted out, the American leaned back and put his feet up. The deal was called off. I have more faith in the first story than the second--I was just trying to connect the dots about why no one sits on the ground. Given your experience, I happy to defer to you.
Why no marble benches for women?
Sep 27th, 2007, 05:53 PM
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Apparently it makes a woman's body drop in temperature, and therefore unable to have children.
At least, this is what I have been told.
Of course, I am the girl who has allergies because I don't always wear slippers around the house, too.
At least, this is what I have been told.
Of course, I am the girl who has allergies because I don't always wear slippers around the house, too.
Sep 27th, 2007, 07:47 PM
#53
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Russia is a wonderful, fascinating place to go, so please don't take my comment as a reason not to; I'm just pointing out some sad facts.
Excessive drinking in Russia is one of a few causes that has actually lead to a decline in the average age of mortality -- somewhere in the low 50's for men these days. While you are unlikely to suffer the louts of frat parties and spring break, the drinking has been very problematic for the general health and productivity of the country. International business people talk of the BRIC countries as promising for investment and development (Brazil, Russia, India, and China,) but many are still very cautious about Russia, and the drunkeness is one of many reasons for their caution.
For CheeseHead: comparing Russia and Wisconsin isn't something to smile about. The state leads the nation in binge drinking, and recent incidents of university student deaths related to drunkenness have been in the papers.
But I always praise reports of appropriate dress in the major cities of Europe and near-Europe. Europeans (and many Asians) believe that shorts and baseball caps are strictly for the under-12 set. And yes: anything that you'd actually work out in is too casual for standard streetwear. Personally, while I'm a fan of beautiful shoes, but make room for comfort-with-beauty. I'm waiting to see if the lovely Russian ladies will adopt the fashionable flats that have made inroads with many fashionistas.
Excessive drinking in Russia is one of a few causes that has actually lead to a decline in the average age of mortality -- somewhere in the low 50's for men these days. While you are unlikely to suffer the louts of frat parties and spring break, the drinking has been very problematic for the general health and productivity of the country. International business people talk of the BRIC countries as promising for investment and development (Brazil, Russia, India, and China,) but many are still very cautious about Russia, and the drunkeness is one of many reasons for their caution.
For CheeseHead: comparing Russia and Wisconsin isn't something to smile about. The state leads the nation in binge drinking, and recent incidents of university student deaths related to drunkenness have been in the papers.
But I always praise reports of appropriate dress in the major cities of Europe and near-Europe. Europeans (and many Asians) believe that shorts and baseball caps are strictly for the under-12 set. And yes: anything that you'd actually work out in is too casual for standard streetwear. Personally, while I'm a fan of beautiful shoes, but make room for comfort-with-beauty. I'm waiting to see if the lovely Russian ladies will adopt the fashionable flats that have made inroads with many fashionistas.
Sep 28th, 2007, 07:44 AM
#54
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Oh, there are so many superstitions! I heard, small girls shouldn't ride bicycles (tricycles??) as this damages their reproductive organs.
Never heard about marble benches, but try to seat on the concrete ones here in the US! My bummie starts complaining right away
Never heard about marble benches, but try to seat on the concrete ones here in the US! My bummie starts complaining right away
Sep 28th, 2007, 09:04 AM
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MadameX -
"For CheeseHead: comparing Russia and Wisconsin isn't something to smile about. The state leads the nation in binge drinking, and recent incidents of university student deaths related to drunkenness have been in the papers."
And just where was I smiling about this?
"For CheeseHead: comparing Russia and Wisconsin isn't something to smile about. The state leads the nation in binge drinking, and recent incidents of university student deaths related to drunkenness have been in the papers."
And just where was I smiling about this?
Sep 29th, 2007, 10:30 AM
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For travellin4 and anyone else in Moscow in mid-October; if you wish to attend the opening (or have a private tour, as there will be a few scheduled during the show's run) send me an email. There will also be a dual show of Alexandre Sitnikov and Olga Bulgakova at the Tretyakov (Krymsky Val building) from November 2 to 25 (details to follow).
If you are traveling to Moscow, my family's foundation is putting on a great exhibition of pieces from our collection and a few others (I might come for the opening):
MINISTRY OF CULTURE AND MASS MEDIA OF RUSSIAN FEDERATION
FEDERAL AGENCY FOR CULTURE AND CINEMATOGRAPHY
NATIONAL CENTRE FOR CONTEMPORARY ARTS (NCCA)
KOLODZEI ART FOUNDATION
Cordially invite you to an opening of the exhibition of
MOSCOW – NEW YORK = PARALLEL PLAY
Selections from the Kolodzei Collection of Russian and Eastern European Art
As part of the Festival of Private Contemporary Art Collections “Dress Rehearsal”
Opening On 15 October 2007 at 5 P.M.
at
NCCA
13, bld. 2, Zoologicheskaya street, Moscow
Metro “Krasnopresnenskaya”, “Barrikadnaya”
+7 495 252 18 82
+7 495 254 84 92
www.ncca.ru
The Exhibition is open until 11 November 2007
Daily noon – 7 P.M. closed Monday
The exhibition Moscow-New York=Parallel Play will travel to Chelsea Art Museum, New York City in February – May of 2008.
***
The Kolodzei Art Foundation, Inc., a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit public foundation started in 1991, organizes exhibitions in museums and cultural centers in the United States, Russia and other countries, and publishes books on Russian art. The Kolodzei Art Foundation also provides art supplies to Russian artists and organizes Russian-American cultural exchanges. The Kolodzei Collection of Russian and Eastern European Art consists of more than 7,000 art works, including paintings, drawings and sculptures, by more than 300 artists from Russia and the former Soviet Union. For more information visit: www.KolodzeiArt.org
If you are traveling to Moscow, my family's foundation is putting on a great exhibition of pieces from our collection and a few others (I might come for the opening):
MINISTRY OF CULTURE AND MASS MEDIA OF RUSSIAN FEDERATION
FEDERAL AGENCY FOR CULTURE AND CINEMATOGRAPHY
NATIONAL CENTRE FOR CONTEMPORARY ARTS (NCCA)
KOLODZEI ART FOUNDATION
Cordially invite you to an opening of the exhibition of
MOSCOW – NEW YORK = PARALLEL PLAY
Selections from the Kolodzei Collection of Russian and Eastern European Art
As part of the Festival of Private Contemporary Art Collections “Dress Rehearsal”
Opening On 15 October 2007 at 5 P.M.
at
NCCA
13, bld. 2, Zoologicheskaya street, Moscow
Metro “Krasnopresnenskaya”, “Barrikadnaya”
+7 495 252 18 82
+7 495 254 84 92
www.ncca.ru
The Exhibition is open until 11 November 2007
Daily noon – 7 P.M. closed Monday
The exhibition Moscow-New York=Parallel Play will travel to Chelsea Art Museum, New York City in February – May of 2008.
***
The Kolodzei Art Foundation, Inc., a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit public foundation started in 1991, organizes exhibitions in museums and cultural centers in the United States, Russia and other countries, and publishes books on Russian art. The Kolodzei Art Foundation also provides art supplies to Russian artists and organizes Russian-American cultural exchanges. The Kolodzei Collection of Russian and Eastern European Art consists of more than 7,000 art works, including paintings, drawings and sculptures, by more than 300 artists from Russia and the former Soviet Union. For more information visit: www.KolodzeiArt.org
Oct 20th, 2007, 06:20 PM
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I've been to Russia many times over the past few years - most recently 4 weeks ago. When we were there, it was unseasonably warm - and there were many people wearing shorts. Mostly younger women - not so many men.
