I chat with waiters pretty much anywhere I go. I grew up in NJ outside NYC... So I am not a chatter by nature. I have to force myself (tho I never talk on airplanes.... Can't do it)

Pretty much everywhere the same thing happens. Some people are rude or just do not want to talk (in which case I shut up). Some people chat briefly and we both move on. Sometimes people open up and tell me the most amazing stories.

I have chatted with a woman who walked out of Hungary in 1956 when her children were young. one child became separated and they reunited 8 years later. i have heard amazing stories of life during communism. I was interrogated (nicely) myself by a waitress in Paris (why do you speak French, live in Hungary, where are you from, etc). A young waiter in Bratislava told me about doing a pig killing with his grandmother (a tradition here) when he was a kid.

I love to hear people's stories and I always admire their country.

If you sat there in black without smiling (yet they KNEW you were American).... They might have thought you were just a pair of cranky Americans or some weird cult.

I was talking to a Hungarian last week in a bookstore and he said, "I hope we never lose our national differences. Who wants to live in a world where no one debates, disagrees, etc".

I never quite get this need to fit in. Next time, I might suggest you chat, smile, be yourself, and quickly move on in the cases where it is not reciprocated.

<i><font color=#555555>"Responding to some people on this forum is pretty much a waste of time."</font></i>

Now that's the smartest thing I've read on this entire thread.

<i><font color=#555555>"unless you fit their mold of politeness, you are rude, which includes most of the known world outside of NYC"</font></i>

It's true, NYC is unlike anywhere I've ever been, and I'm a veteran traveler. That's why I can't live anywhere else. NYC can be a tough, challenging town, so if I do experience rude people, I usually chalk it up to someone having a bad day. It's very easy to have a bad here.

<i><font color=#555555>"Being an American and calling the French rude just shows a total lack of respect and knowledge for a foreign culture."</font></i>

It's much more fun to listen to my Parisian friends complain about their own people. The <i>l'attitude</i> of many in Paris is well known in France and throughout the world. It's also well known among the Paris locals.

<i><font color=#555555>"but many times, for whatever reason, the waiters just spoke to us in English quickly"</font></i>

If you upload a photo to your profile, that might explain things.

<i><font color=#555555>"our Texas accents on "Bonjour" is probably pathetic!"</font></i>

Reason #2.

<i><font color=#555555>"I don't waste time responding to these zenophobic, narrow-minded posts any more."</font></i>

Yet, you're here with a post.

<i><font color=#555555>"I've seen thousands upon thousands of clueless Americans in France"</font></i>

I've seen them in NYC, too. And I hear some vote. Good grief, what shall we do with all the clueless people? I know, maybe we could ask Thin to cock and load.

<i><font color=#555555>"Stay away from France."</font></i>

And Italy.

> told my husband to "Wait and step back!" <

Very nice of her to speak English to him.

ira..:)

Responding to some people on this forum is pretty much a waste of time. They are set in their ways and unless you fit their mold of politeness, you are rude, which includes most of the known world outside of NYC, but thankfully they do not reflect the city, only their narrow mindset.
___

It is always those other people who refuse to change their mind.

There are 8.25 million in NYC and 19 million in the metropolitan area. If is just so hard to say "Howdy" to everyone.

"We really did try to always say small greetings and thank you's in French as much as possible-- but many times, for whatever reason, the waiters just spoke to us in English quickly. (our Texas accents on "Bonjour" is probably pathetic!) The restaurant prices were very high, but we tried not to express surprise. We tried not to speak loudly or smile too much. We really did try to dress in dark colors and try to fit in with others while traveling because I read about that in the Fodor's travel books"

I got to thinking about this statement and recalled when we took our teenage children to Europe how different Europeans can be from Americans in not smiling as much, etc. BUT I see NO reason not to continue to be smiling American TOURISTS. Not being loud is good no matter WHERE you are--home or abroad. Being polite counts everywhere also. Dressing in dark clothes on a trip helps in the cleanliness category everywhere.
BUT it is true that the French have a bit of the je ne sais quoi (sp.!) and attitude is their middle name--as is "reserve". That is NOT being rude. And you should thank your (expensive, because of your choice of places) waiters for speaking English.
Glad you'll go back.

Sorry I have not red this whole thread.

However, if you are fearful because the streets are crowded - you just don;t belong in a city. Crowded streets are way afer than empty ones.

As for having tings stolen from your pockets - yes - you were both making the classic mistake of NOT PAYING ATTENTION. Yuo need to do this at all times - everywhere in the world. Not just a city issue - although since tourists stand out and often look confused they are chosen most often.

As for people being "cold". these people are not your best friends. They are strangers or they are working with you in a professional capacity. They are acting normally. You are expecting them to be uber friendly - and europeans just generally aren't with strangers. I must admit - that I find the overly friendly behavior of people in some places to be creepy - and unwelcome. And I don;t want to stand on line waiting to pay for something while the clerk and customer in front of me chat. THAT is rude - to me and the others behind me. Call your friends and talk on your own time - don;t take up other people's in a business establishment.

That said - there are a few rude people everywhere. Not a reason to ignore one of the world's greatest treasures.

The other day one of my Facebook friends complained that “people in the hallway” don’t smile or say hello back. I have no idea what hallway she is talking about but the responses included that people are

completely uncouth, ignorant, mean, selective, and/or LACKING ALL COMMON DECENCY...stupid...don’t have manners anymore...“WTF”...having one of those days or one of those lives...rude, lack of personality and outright strange...wrapped up in their children, partners, Ambien, whatever...more of an east coast thing - take that as a challenge to be extra friendly - it's their problem not mine

Some people can’t handle the fact that not everyone is exactly like them

It's funny, when I'm in Paris I can't help but smile.

((H))

I'm laughing about the definitions of "rude".

My husband, a guy who loves to avoid social encounters of any type, thought it was a point of pride NOT to visit the neighbors in the house where we lived for 25 years. We certainly would greet them when we saw them, but since there was a lot of distance between houses, we could go a year without a personal encounter, and he LOVED that.

Now we've moved urban. "Mr. Friendly" has commented that he's upset that people don't say "Hi" in return when he's walking the dog.

I just smile.

What maitaitom said. But include pretty much ANYWHERE I AM! It's just part of my personality. Some of us are typically positive/in a good mood, while others are always looking for the right excuse to be mad/unhappy at the world!!

Maybe it's 'cause people don't talk face to face that much anymore. Everyone is always on their smart phone or notebook! I have a number of very friendly European friends with whom big smiles, big hugs and air kisses are always the norm.

About the "no smiling" French. About 15 years ago Tracy and I were at Château du Clos Lucé (Da Vinci's place in Amboise). After our tour, we went to the gift shop and bought an entry hall rug that we would have to lug for the next week as we traveled throughout France.

As we were paying, I joked around with the woman who sold us the rug saying I was going to make Tracy carry it everywhere. All three of us were laughing, when the woman said something to the effect, "You are much friendlier than most Americans I've met." Maybe some tourists should look at themselves in the mirror before condemning an entire city or culture.

I have always believed that, for the most part, people treat you the way you treat them. I've found that true in Paris, NYC and everywhere else I have traveled. There are exceptions (being robbed would certainly be one of them), and when it comes to being miserable on a trip, I believe most people bring misery on themselves by their own negative attitude.

I believe in "Attitude is Everything!" Maybe that's Polyannish of me, but I have been to Paris 12 times, and each trip has brought nothing but joy.

((H))

I love Paris...and I love France. IF or WHEN I can I WILL LIVE THERE...(I enjoy the coolness...don't want or neet to be your next very best friend ever) but wouldn't most of you travelers to France concede that outside of Paris, the French are different?
Outside of NYC people are different...outside London I'll bet people are a tad different..outside the big town...calmer, have more time...don't have to rush so ofter...?
And yes, that said, I do have a certain lightness in my step when I'm somewhere else. (Except Rome...I have some very unpopular with Fodorites feelings about Rome...) LOL

well sueciv..as the French always said..A Chagun Son Gout..:)

When we visit a country we try to read some of the serious literature of that country, learn some history and recent occurances, the art, a little about the food, amd my wife spends a lot of time learning a few words in that language. The first thing I learn in another language is "I am smarter in English," because I know what an idiot I sound like. Often we are told that they are suprised an American knows about their country.

We have made life-long friends in a number of countries, but some how none are French and we have been there 4 or 5 times.

Pvoyageuse, thank you for confirming that.

Our last trip to Paris my husband had mobility issues... and everyone went out of their way to help. But I'm a New Yorker so maybe I'm just in synch with people in a large city.

On the other hand... I once went to Harry's Shoes (New Yorkers will know). I try to be a nice person. But I wonder if I overdo it.... because after awhile the clerk said......
Are you a New Yorker??

Remembering how irritating i used to find tourists clogging up the streets when I worked in London, I don't expect Parisiens to be anything but grumpy with me, so when they are nice, it's a bonus!

There is a big difference between people being pleasant to those they encounter - and assuming that you will have long chats and become friendly with random people in shops and restaurants.

They have a professional relationship with you - not a personal one - unless you it's your home town and yu see them all the time.

A lot of americans seem to prefer exaggerated faux friendly (hi, I'm your waitperson bambi and it's such a lovely day and how are you all doing today- ick!) versus professional attention - bonjour madam, may we seat you at this table? In europe waiters are professionals make a decent living - are not college kids trying to con you out o bigger tips with their irritating cheerleader personalities,)

I'm sorry you had such a bad couple of experiences in Paris, and I hope it doesn't put you off France entirely. The Parisians don't have a very good reputation in the rest of France - they've been accused of being rude for a great many years. But Londoners don't have a very good reputation in the rest of the UK either. People in the north of England think that those of us in the south are very unfriendly, with us Londoners being the worst of all!

It's nice to know that some people at least believe that in the UK we still queue/stand in line for buses etc. It's not true any more in most of London - but whether that's because of the number of foreigners living here, because of the number of tourists, or just because of the size of the city and therefore anonymity of the individual, who knows. Certainly in most of the rest of the country it's still the case that people get on a bus in the order in which they have arrived at the bus stop. Not necessarily standing in line whilst waiting any more, but noticing the number of people who were there before them and getting in line accordingly when the bus arrives. And woe betide anyone who tries to jump the queue.

This is an observation. I have only had good experiences in Paris and France.

Our very dear friends have a small wonderful restaurant in Portugal where occasionally French tourists dine. We have witnessed on multiple occasions our Portuguese friend trying to understand his French customers who do not make any attempt at trying to speak any Portuguese.....not a greeting, thank you or asking for a bill. It seems they are expecting the Portuguese to have to speak or at least understand French unlike their expectation of tourists in their country.

Don't you think it's the same in any big city.
I've never found myself being warm and fuzzy
in anyplace in the major cities.

Cigalechanta, I am assuming your above comment is a response to my posting about the friends who experience French tourists in their little restaurant as you also previously responded to the post.

Not sure about being "warm and fuzzy" in big cities but I will say that this restaurant where we have seen French tourists only speaking in French, Belmiro the restaurant owner doing his very best to understand them, is located in a small town on the southern coast.

I just think it is interesting that those French tourists just assume the Portuguese will understand them as if this is what is expected of restaurant owners. I do not make this observation with little experience as I have helped them by working in their restaurant many a night over the last 20 years or so. Of all those who are served there I find the Dutch to be willing to speak some Portuguese or al least English which most Portuguese in business understand.

My personal travel style is to speak rudimentary restaurant/hotel phrases in the language of the country I am traveling in as a sign of respect....if not to facilitate service.

I think it is extremely rude to write that all American waiters are college kids with cheerleader personalities.

I don't know where you live, nor do I know where you dine, but I can assure you that I frequent many restaurants in the US that have a professional serving staff.

This whole "Europe is much more sophisticated than the US" is a bunch of nonsense.

Thin

Lowcountry, I don't think It was you I was responding to
Also didn't make myself clear. So many Americans are so adapted to the chain restaurants where the wait person introduces themselves and gets over friendly.
I love Paris and never had a rude waiter.

Agree that we dine almost exclusively in actual restaurants with professional staff.

However, there are many thousands of restaurants across the US - and not just chain places - but many local inexpensive places - where the staff are college kids who are untrained - except in overly friendly greetings and very poor service techniques.

My father in his later years decided he loved Applebee's - god knows why - and I can;t tell you how many times I was subjected to grossly incompetent - but happy/smiley - waitstaff - who seemed more intent on clapping and warbling about people's birthdays that serving any food (but it's so bad, really it hardly matters). To a lot of people this is normal waitstaff behavior - and professional service is cold and rude.

Yes, there are a lot of sophisticated people in the US - but there are also a lot who think Applebee's is a real restaurant and think waitstaff should act like cheerleaders.

Yes, and you have versions of Appleby's in Europe.

You also have lots of bumpkins in Europe.

Or do you think everyone walking around Lyon has a degree in Philosophy from Cambridge or Padova?

Was at the airport in Lyon last summer waiting for flight to Marco Polo.

I saw more fitted caps and Bulls jerseys than on the LIRR.

There are Starbucks and Hollister all over Europe.

There is a Hooters in Interlaken Switzerland.

You can't tell the Europeans from the Americans. It is all the same culture.

Pepper don't be silly , wearing the same clothing does not make it "all the same culture".. ridiculus pronouncement.

I know I wear same clothing as many Americans, but I also know our culture is different. I think that's may be part of SOME Americans problems, they don't get its DIFFERENT , even if there is a Starbucks, and the guy is wearing levis.. And , hey they "DON'T ALL SPEAK ENGLISH" ( but just won't to be mean) .

Culture is only on the surface of a lot of people, not inside them.

Last year, I was walking down the street in my neighborhood and I hear two guys behind me speaking French very loudly. When they passed me they were both in kick ass gear, complete with their pants below their butts underwear sticking out, their caps ass backwards, and cheap bling. I thought Jack Lang would spinning in his grave, if he were dead.

"culture" doesn't always mean "cultured" they are not to be confused.

culture" doesn't always mean "cultured" they are not to be confused.
____

Yes every society has its morons.

<i><font color=#555555>"It seems they are expecting the Portuguese to have to speak or at least understand French unlike their expectation of tourists in their country…I think it is interesting that those French tourists just assume the Portuguese will understand them as if this is what is expected of restaurant owners."</font></i>

If you travel a lot, you see that people have more in common than not.

As a general rule, French tourists seek out the best restaurants in Venice, Italy. I often find myself at favorite haunts surrounded by French diners. They often don't bother to speak Italian (very true of the British as well), and most of these restaurants have French versions of the menu (they know who their best customers are). What is surprising to me, the Italian owner (or maître d') often speaks fluent French. It's a joy for me to listen in on all these conversations since I speak both Italian and French.

<i><font color=#555555>"I've never found myself being warm and fuzzy in anyplace"</font></i>

What does warm and fuzzy have to do with attempting to use some words of the native language?

<i><font color=#555555>"I think it is extremely rude to write that all American waiters are college kids with cheerleader personalities."</font></i>

It very much does depend on where you eat. Many chain restaurants in America have training programs for waiters, and a lot of these places force their workers to put forth a fake obsequiousness. They are trained to believe that this is what most customers view as good service.

In a private establishment, you're likely to find professional waiters who know how to finesse customers with a more individual style. In NYC, in the right restaurant (there are many), waiters bring home six-figure salaries. Their personalities tend to be more refined and less robotized.

<i><font color=#555555>"I love Paris and never had a rude waiter."</font></i>

Some people love while wearing rose-tinted glasses. I've been traveling to Paris for over 30 years. I once co-owned an apartment on Place des Vosges. I've experienced rude service in Paris more times than I wish to recall. Some people say the silliest things on the internet.

As a frenchman, I just want to add a comment on the behaviour of french people in Portugal. France was a major destination of portuguese immigration during the 60-70's, and it appears that many people in Portugal do speak french. Especially in the tourist business. Some of them were opened by people when they came back.
I remember travelling in Portugual whith my parents 20 years ago : some people there were quitte happy to speak french, and it appeared on different occasions that they had been living in France for a long time. Several of them in the south-west of France, sometimes in my hometown of Bordeaux.

Than, there is a strong connection between both countries an english or dutch person might not be aware of (there are 4 million people of portugueuse nationality or direct ascent in France : 5% of the population)
That said, I have to admit that french people tend to behave in Europe as if french was still "the" international language it used to be

That said, I have to admit that french people tend to behave in Europe as if french was still "the" international language it used to be>>

they wouldn't be alone in that, paris15.

I am very much a Francophile, but I've been made aware over and over again by other Europeans that "THE ATTITUDE" is still one of the reasons the French are not very popular with the rest of European citizens.

Case in point: During the March rugby match in Dublin, the taxi drivers were really angry that the French would not even try to use English, especially since they were well aware that English is part of the French school curriculum. They kept saying non-stop, no matter which driver, that Russians, Poles, Germans, Dutch, Spaniards, Italians (and tongue in check, even Americans) were willing to give the language a go, but not the French. The barkeepers in the hotel were a bit miffed, too.

However, I know I am going to miss being able to communicate in English in the US soon :), so I don't think I can sit in judgment of anyone else's need to assert a cultural superiority.

And just in case anyone misinterprets my statement above, I DO NOT think WASP culture in the US is superior.
Always a good thought to have is that "Only change is changeless."

They kept saying non-stop, no matter which driver, that Russians, Poles, Germans, Dutch, Spaniards, Italians (and tongue in check, even Americans) were willing to give the language a go, but not the French>>

AZ - I have noticed a distinct change in France, or at least in Paris, to the speaking of english in the last 5 years or so. before that, France was different to most of europe in that virtually everywhere else, waiters etc would speak english to you, even if your german for example was better than their english, out of some misguided idea that the english don't like speaking foreign languages.

in France, OTOH, they would let you struggle along with O level french even if their English was far superior to your French.

on our last few visits to Paris, we have found that this has now changed, and it's become much more difficult to find opportunities to practice my execrable french. and at the french open tennis championships, there was the wonderful spectacle of Nadal being interviewed in english and replying in French.