Je suis Charlie
Jan 8th, 2015, 12:34 PM
#81
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Kerouac - Thanks for posting the YouTube link. It's encouraging to see the professional solidarity. A couple of the cartoons, especially "ça tire (AK47) vs. satire (pen)" say it all.
I was struck by what menachem posted up thread that the aim of the perpetrators may not have been so much to protest the cartoons, but rather to provoke an anti-Muslim backlash. Hope he's right that this will not work.
I was struck by what menachem posted up thread that the aim of the perpetrators may not have been so much to protest the cartoons, but rather to provoke an anti-Muslim backlash. Hope he's right that this will not work.
Jan 8th, 2015, 01:03 PM
#82
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@MaineGG: if I look at the gatherings, both in Paris and elsewhere, also here in the Netherlands, I think the sentiment is changing.
Remember, in The Netherlands, Theo van Gogh was murdered by an islamic terrorist: in the aftermath of that it was very much "them" vs "us". Remember also in The Netherlands potentially the largest party in parliament could be Geert Wilder's PVV, whose MPs have used their parliamentary status to proclaim their belief that islam and the koran should be banned from public life, lest "the muslims" would attempt to "colonize us" via the "wombs of their women".
I live in Rotterdam, a city that is very much at the forefront of a changing ethnic landscape: in some areas, 50% of inhabitants are non-Dutch, ethnically, and predominantly muslim.
And we have a muslim mayor of Moroccan descent: in many ways, Rotterdam is the laboratory. There was a support rally for Charlie Hebdo tonight. Great show of unity and strength and a very mixed crowd. Amazing and hopeful sight.
Remember, in The Netherlands, Theo van Gogh was murdered by an islamic terrorist: in the aftermath of that it was very much "them" vs "us". Remember also in The Netherlands potentially the largest party in parliament could be Geert Wilder's PVV, whose MPs have used their parliamentary status to proclaim their belief that islam and the koran should be banned from public life, lest "the muslims" would attempt to "colonize us" via the "wombs of their women".
I live in Rotterdam, a city that is very much at the forefront of a changing ethnic landscape: in some areas, 50% of inhabitants are non-Dutch, ethnically, and predominantly muslim.
And we have a muslim mayor of Moroccan descent: in many ways, Rotterdam is the laboratory. There was a support rally for Charlie Hebdo tonight. Great show of unity and strength and a very mixed crowd. Amazing and hopeful sight.
Jan 8th, 2015, 01:39 PM
#83
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FrankS, as much as you may THINK you know of others thoughts, I can tell you from my personal thoughts, you have no idea of what you speak. You don't like the speech of Charlie Hebdo, so you think they should die, or they brought it on themselves. I can fully understand the sentiment, I have several older relatives 80+ in age who also believe as you, apparently do. I can't accept, however, your seeming inability to separate the concepts of the original post to those of your preconceived political leanings. This is really an exercise in one's ability to think, perceive, analyze and comment on something that oftentimes requires you to remove yourself from your own desires and try to see another's point. You, wholly refuse to even consider other points, opinions and thoughts. I applaud and defend your right to do so.
Just as you pointed out that many here would not support if the victim was a KKK outlet. What you fail to recognize, I believe, is that you too would fall entirely in support if this attack was on some fundamentalist Christian group that say was attacked for arguing against homosexuals rights. You have numerous posts on this website that say as much. So while you rail against the hypocrisy of those who support free speech, keep in mind you suffer the same failure, as we all do.
Lastly, as I understand your point, Free Speech is ONLY speech that you like? Or is it speech you agree with? Or is it speech that you don't find offensive? We may have a better, less hypocritical discussion if we can get you to define for some of us ignorant people what YOU mean by "Free Speech".
Just as you pointed out that many here would not support if the victim was a KKK outlet. What you fail to recognize, I believe, is that you too would fall entirely in support if this attack was on some fundamentalist Christian group that say was attacked for arguing against homosexuals rights. You have numerous posts on this website that say as much. So while you rail against the hypocrisy of those who support free speech, keep in mind you suffer the same failure, as we all do.
Lastly, as I understand your point, Free Speech is ONLY speech that you like? Or is it speech you agree with? Or is it speech that you don't find offensive? We may have a better, less hypocritical discussion if we can get you to define for some of us ignorant people what YOU mean by "Free Speech".
Jan 8th, 2015, 06:14 PM
#87
There is no such thing as lewd speech.
Oscar Wilde said, "There is no such thing as a moral or immoral book; a book is well written or badly written. That is all."
If those cartoons were lies, you could criticise them.
But, they were not lies.
There is zero evidence that Jesus Christ (Yeshua ha Nozri?) or the prophet MOHAMMED existed.
If you are going to worship a fictional character, I would choose Lady Catherine de Bourgh.
Thin
Oscar Wilde said, "There is no such thing as a moral or immoral book; a book is well written or badly written. That is all."
If those cartoons were lies, you could criticise them.
But, they were not lies.
There is zero evidence that Jesus Christ (Yeshua ha Nozri?) or the prophet MOHAMMED existed.
If you are going to worship a fictional character, I would choose Lady Catherine de Bourgh.
Thin
Jan 8th, 2015, 06:45 PM
#88
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Moi aussi, je suis Charlie.
I don't know if this is the origin of je suis charlie, but after September 11, much of Paris and France as well said
"nous sommes touts américains"
We were in Paris for a week in May and my heart goes out to this beautiful city where we were met everywhere with kindness, humor, and tolerance for our very intermediate (on a good day)
French.
I don't know if this is the origin of je suis charlie, but after September 11, much of Paris and France as well said
"nous sommes touts américains"
We were in Paris for a week in May and my heart goes out to this beautiful city where we were met everywhere with kindness, humor, and tolerance for our very intermediate (on a good day)
French.
Jan 8th, 2015, 07:07 PM
#89
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I think that France's aggressive position on free speech, and its fierce secularism, are hard for an American to grasp. That is the kindest thing I can find to say about FrankS's views as expressed in this thread.
And the only reason I can find not to worship Lady Catherine de Bourgh is that she would enjoy being worshipped too much.
And the only reason I can find not to worship Lady Catherine de Bourgh is that she would enjoy being worshipped too much.
Jan 9th, 2015, 02:11 AM
#92
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The suspects are now surrounded. They've been found in a building on an industrial estate next to an Aldi (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-30722098)
Presumably drawn by Aldi's famously low prices and stunning selection of German pork charcuterie.
Murderers just haven't got the class any more. Guy Fawkes planned his atrocity with far greater style.
Presumably drawn by Aldi's famously low prices and stunning selection of German pork charcuterie.
Murderers just haven't got the class any more. Guy Fawkes planned his atrocity with far greater style.
Jan 9th, 2015, 03:52 AM
#94
There are now two hostage situations because the killer of the policewoman yesterday in Montrouge (and who has been linked to the other killers) has now taken hostages in a kosher grocery store at Porte de Vincennes. Metro and roads closed in the area, obviously.
Jan 9th, 2015, 04:15 AM
#98
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