It's after midnight in France, so perhaps kerouac has gone to bed. Or maybe he's out partying. I don't think he's over 60 like some of us old codgers. We may have to wait for morning for a response.

"So given the choice, a host will put "attractive" customers (that whole mix of qualities) where others will see them."

Like I said, I guess I'm screwed no matter what I pack! I can't say I look anything like Jerry Stiller, but the coming out scene in the Elephant man comes to mind.

What's funny about this kind of thread is that to some extent it's absurd, but what it's really about is "When I go to a nice restaurant in Paris, am I OK if I dress like I do in New York, or is it more formal, like Philadelphia or D.C.?" Not necessarily an easy question to answer.

You're right, that's not easy to answer. But for me, usually eating at a lot of restaurants in the Hell's Kitchen area of New York and similar cost restaurants in the Latin Quarter or St. Germain areas of Paris, I'd say
overall people dress "better" or more stylish in those Paris places.

neo patrick
over 60 doesn't make you an old codger!!
just wiser and more sensible!!

It is largely a matter of the place you are in. An example was when we retired and moved from D.C. to a small town, north of Seattle.

We joined a service/social club, and were invited to a function. The invitation said "Formal", so we dressed as we would in D.C.; DW in a long gown, and me in my Tux. We arrived a bit late, and walked in just as all the guest rose to the opening ceremonies.

There was not a single man in the room in a tie, and many jeans and even shorts were in evidence. The women were dressed equally casually.

We were later told that "dress up" in this town means "Clean blue jeans". "Formal", means "Clean blue jeans with no paint spots -- big belt buckle optional".

I'm still taking a jacket to Paris in October, just because I feel more comfortable in a formal setting with one. Besides, we are renewing our wedding vows, and I don't feel flip flops are appropriate.

:-)

Maitaitom: I just have to defend my always tightly budgeted self: our lunch in Paris at le Grand Vefour was 75 Euro each. My brother had a glass of some sort of sparkling wine that was 15 Euro for the glass. This was a big splurge for all of us, and we had always wanted to try a Michelin starred restaurant. Well, I did, and my brother did. I don't think my husband really wanted to, but we three enjoyed the experience.

It was a splurge, and I later saw a dress I wanted in BHV that cost about a lunch and a half, and couldn't get the dress. A definite trade off.

As I said, it was a splurge. I should have said earlier that we bought the jacket at Marshall's so that DH would have one for the restaurant. I was afraid I'd get hooted off Fodor's for having a husband without a sport jacket. :">

You crack me up, zooey.

<<We were later told that "dress up" in this town means "Clean blue jeans". "Formal", means "Clean blue jeans with no paint spots -- big belt buckle optional".>>

Well, Nuke, those people are maroons. I think it's great if they want to have a blue jeans event, I'd love to be invited. But to write "formal" on the invitation - that's idiotic, unless it was supposed to be a joke! And obviously it wasn't helpful to their guests!


Footnote: When "semi-formal" was first devised it meant the "dinner jacket" or "tuxedo" route. That is, half as formal as white tie and tails.

I'd write "black tie" on an invitation if I were in charge, rather than the confusing "formal." (Unfortunately, I'm not in charge.) ((H))

So true. Back in my high school and college days, even our proms were called "semi-formal". That meant most of the guys wore white dinner jackets and the girls mainly wore knee length rather floor length gowns.
And NO, our proms were not held inside the cave.

<<I believe that proper attire and a bit of "attitude" works well in Paris.>>

As the most visited city in the world, Paris provides just about every imaginable experience that people request (It is also the sex club capital of the world -- you should see the listings and descriptions in the weekly Pariscope, which are not even exhaustive. People usually go to these straight from their fancy restaurants, because there's just something special about getting down and dirty when you are wearing your finest.)

But it is all just role playing, like getting past the doorman at exclusive clubs. Everybody knows that how you are dressed is not a criterium as much as the ferocity of your eye contact. (Strangely enough, the provinces are much more strict, as it is often indicated on a sign: "athletic shoes not allowed.")

So I will concede that restaurants will often lay it on thick to customers who are overdressed, and you can barely see their smirk (<i>'going to a sex club later?</i>) -- this might be what some of you are perceiving as &quot;better&quot; treatment by the staff in such places. Have any of you see the French movie &quot;The Dinner Game&quot;? It might help to explain the 'fun' that Parisians have with certain people. When they find a true 'prize' couple, they will certainly put them in the most visible table in the restaurant. Just something to think about. ;)

[No, I hadn't gone to bed yet. I read oakglen's intervention but went on to other pursuits on the net. I'm sorry to say that Fodor's in not my principal 'debate' site.]

It is true that local gents in neighborhood restaurants will likely be wearing jackets (no matter how hot the weather) with slacks - whether you call them chinos, dress twills, etc. In my observation, men who don't care to wear jackets to dinner don't care if they're the only one in a restaurant not wearing one.

You will see anything and everything on other tourists and they will be patronizing all sorts of dining establishments.

It's no more necessary for your husband to pack a blazer for dining than for you to pack a little black dress, short black skirt and lacy camisole, linen suit, or strappy high heels and expensive handbag.

However, my husband brings a blazer (wool/silk in a subtle pattern) that goes with black or tan slacks, and I pack a black skirt and dressy tops and low heeled pumps, along with a silk or wool (black) blazer. A jacket is handy, no matter the forecast (even for a chilly plane). And, we prefer to dress &quot;nicer&quot; for &quot;nicer&quot; restaurants.

But, for &quot;the most casual places&quot;, casual attire is just fine. The locals, I think, tend to be more dressed up because a) they are on their way home from work, and/or b) they just have more formal, rather than casual, wardrobes.

kerouac - After reading the above plus some of your other observations,
I have come to the conclusion that &quot;your Paris&quot; is not &quot;my Paris&quot;.
I don't mean that unkindly - I just think that I frequent different areas (you might say touristy) and see Paris through different colored glasses.

Absolutely no offense taken, robjame -- obviously a resident and tourist will never see a city the same way or follow the same rules. And although I try to help when possible, I would not want visitors to do all of the same things that I do. The vast majority of tourists overpay and overdo everything (through no fault of their own -- being in unfamiliar territory and having a limited time to have to most 'fun' imaginable leads all of us to act differently from at home). This is a great thing for residents, since the extra money not only fuels the economy but also helps to keep prices low out of the tourist areas.

But of course, living in the #1 tourist destination in the world is both a blessing and a curse. I would say that the number of visitors has at least doubled in the last 20 years, diminishing the enjoyment of the residents while filling their pockets.

I know the feeling, having lived in San Francisco for 25 years. Many of the &quot;must see&quot; attractions and destination restaurants for visitors are not places frequented by locals. But I've stopped trying to tell visitors to avoid, say, fisherman's wharf. Instead I do encourage people to add some local flavor to their visits.

But back to topic, I would tell a visitor that at most of the nicer restaurants in San Francisco you see very few ties, that many of the men wear jackets but they generally won't feel out of place without one, and that I wouldn't suggest wearing your picnic attire even though you will see some who do. And if you see someone sitting at the tiny table between the kitchen and the bathroom door wearing large clown shoes, an enormous polka dot bow tie, and white pancake makeup, that would be me.

zooey, how are your balloon-animal-making skills? Are you for hire?

Incidentally, I was reminded of a restaurant here that used to have a jackets required rule for gentlemen. But they were very stingy with the air-conditioning. So on any given night you could look around the room and see that out of maybe 50 men, perhaps 35 of them had their jackets off and draped over their chairs. What was the point?

It was a scheme to get out of reupholstering the chairs ...

Just try to appreciate Paris while you can. 800,000 Chinese tourists this year in Paris. Within 2 years, that will be 2 million, and it will keep rising. It will change the face of tourism in France as we all know it (note: the Chinese who come to France go to just two regions at the moment - Paris and Alsace). And since Chinese tourists spend more money per person than any other group, prepare to be squeezed out of a lot of places that you know and love.

An important observation, Kerouac.

The other day someone was mentioning visiting Dubai, and how incredibly expensive they found it, that they wondered if the &quot;tourism mecca&quot; that seems to be the goal there could succeed. I suggested maybe some of the millions of future Chinese and Indian tourists might make it a &quot;nearby&quot; attraction.

As a New Yorker, I certainly understand the effect of thousands upon thousands of tourists crowding the streets of a city with millions of its own inhabitants trying to get around and enjoy their home town. (On that note, I recently read an apartment listing for Paris in which the owners admitted that the popularity of your town was the reason they would be traveling, making their apt available!)

I should have added, that couple said they needed to get away from the crowds and enjoy someplace else for a while.

&quot;note: the Chinese who come to France go to just two regions at the moment - Paris and Alsace&quot;

Interesting. I've never heard that. Why Alsace?

((H))