I've resisted going to Germany but.....

Old May 7th, 2010, 04:50 AM
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I am Jewish and visited Germany three separate times. On each visit, whenever I saw an elderly man or woman, I could not stop myself from wondering where he or she was during the war. I'm sorry, but as a Jew, the Holocaust is always in the forefront of my mind. I cannot forget what happened to 6 million of my brethren. The Holocaust was not a mistake, as one poster claimed. It was the worst case of mass murder in the history of humankind. That is not to say I hold the current generation of Germans responsible for what their fathers and grandfathers may have done, but you cannot forget what happened, and with anti-Semitism still rampant in the world today, it can happen again.

I am sending my 16-year-old daughter to Poland and Israel this summer for 5 weeks. Her trip starts in Poland, exploring Jewish life before, during and after the war, and then she spends 4 weeks in Israel to witness the re-emergence and rebirth of Jewish life following the war. It will be an eye-opening experience for her.

Enjoy your trip to Germany, but never forget. Never Again.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 05:32 AM
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"No country is "clean" of atrocities somewhere in their history.

The passing of years allow countries to start again with a clean slate if they strive to better their policies and the behaviour of their citizens. I believe Germany has done this."

Good point. Excellent post Mainhattengirl. Yours too, SV.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 05:49 AM
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>On each visit, whenever I saw an elderly man or woman, I could not stop myself from wondering where he or she was during the war.

Well, it may have been a relevant question 20 years ago, but nowadays the answer is invariably "peeing their pants in a bomb cellar", as any 10-year old would have done under comparable conditions.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 06:49 AM
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I completely understand your feelings about visiting Germany. Many years ago we were at JFK waitng to visit the Netherlands. We were sitting at a bar and began speaking with a young German We got into a serious converstion about WW2 and the Holocaust. He explained it was his parents, grandparents and the younger generation was innocent. After a couple of beers, agrered with him. During our trip we went to Mastricht and then drove to Trier in
Germany. It was a difficult decision but we felt better afterward that we had done it. We have been to Germany many times since, visiting Jewish sights.. One of the best experiences was visiting Berlin a few years ago and seeing that Jews were living there. It was almost like dancing on hitlers grave as he spun around. I understand the feeling and all it encompasses but the Poles, Ukrainians were just as bad.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 06:56 AM
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altamiro - I find your answer very disrespectful of freberta's feelings. My 92 year old grandmother was a young woman during the war years. There are still many elderly people alive today who were adults at the time. I might have the same response as freberta myself because I am reminded every Friday night when I say Kaddish for the 6 million that something horrible happened to them. As a Jew I think it is a natural response to wonder if that person contributed in any way to their murders. We will never forget even after the last person alive at the time is gone.


freberta - I would like to visit Germany too for the natural beauty, castles, pre-war history but my mother is adamant that she will never go. I'll have to find another travel companion for that trip. It's on my bucket list though.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 07:31 AM
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I was born and spent my youth in a European country bombed and ruined by Germans . Most of my parent's families perished during the war. The Cold War that followed, and the suffering inflicted on many Europeans by the Communist were a direct results of the Second World War.
Sure, the present generation of Germans has nothing to be blamed for, but Hitler's mad plan resulted in 50-60 million dead including soldiers, Jews, Slavs and civilians of many different nationalities. Comparing it to Vietnam war or the treatment of Black in the US is silly.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 08:10 AM
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"Comparing it to ... or the treatment of Black(s) in the US is silly."

No, it is not silly. If you set up concentration camps for Blacks, Jews or any minority group in the US, you would have volunteers for camp guards. The fault is not a German one but a human one. If we are to remember and prevent this evil, then our memories need be projected onto ourselves as a whole not on the German nation.

We pass an unpopular law and some folks start calling black Congressmen "nigger" on the capitol steps. The near universal outcry against this behavior is what keeps it from escalating into a holocaust or a Rwanda.

As travel is the experiencing of cultures, I think this is an excellent travel topic.

Regards, Gary
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Old May 7th, 2010, 08:16 AM
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As you walk along and see older people in Germany, you might also ask yourself if they were some of the people who helped Jews survive?

Do you know how many people survived by going into hiding? Who do you think kept them hid and kept them fed? How many Germans went to Concentration Camps for helping Jewish people? They may not all have been Oskar Schindlers, but they are a large group of unsung, mostly unknown heros.

It may be that old German woman you just passed, who saved an entire family from the death camps. Her husband may have worked in the police dept. and may have helped with false identity papers. We just don't know sometimes.

Have any of you read "Kaiserfhof Strasse 12"?
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Old May 7th, 2010, 08:50 AM
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The unimaginable crimes committed against Jews ( if you wish to compare it to the treatment of Blacks) is only ONE part of the history of the Second World War. 50-60 million dead and Russian control of Eastern Europe was rather different than the war in Vietnam or even the horrors of slavery.
As far as Germans saving Jew..I am sure there were wonderful people who risk their lives in Germany (and other countries )to do so, but the notion that someone would automatically think an older German was one of them is rather strange.

It seem to me Americans might have a very different view of the WWII ( and its aftermath)than many of us born in post war Europe.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 10:00 AM
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I have been reading the many very-interesting replies on this post. I must say that the post written by Freberta most reflects my own. Your daughter will enrich her heritage by visiting Poland and Israel. I have been to both and left with feelings of compassion and wonderment. Visiting concentration camps is somber - but necessary. Israel is unbelievable.

I have resisted going to Germany for so many years - just as I have intentionally not bought a Germany car - but now I fully believe that the time has come to put the past behind and focus on the new country and the present generation of Germans. Perhaps I will think, when I see an elderly German, what they were doing, or what they were thinking during the war.

I am Jewish, but do not have a Jewish-sounding last name. I don't wear my religion on my sleeve and it is not obvious what it is. Yes - I have seen and witnessed antisemitism over the years - but I only hope that I don't experience any nor get the feeling of unease when I am there. Pschologically, I am totally ready to go. I leave in 2 days and am eagerly looking forward to the trip.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 10:06 AM
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The Armenian genocide has been in the news quite a bit. It would seem that in that case, there is a difference of opinion on the interpretation of the facts.

Rwanda..being a Canadian, there is a small link via our General Dallaire to those events. Last I heard there was a reconcilation tribunal being planned (?).

From what I know, the Stalin's actions in the Ukraine was probably the largest mass murder of our times, with 7,000,000 dying. I saw an article that recently Ukraine wanted this to be labelled a genocide (it wasn't already?).

I have no idea how those who have suffered at the hands of the above should feel, can only predict my own feelings. Is forviveness never possible? Is forgiveness possible if there is true contrition? Does everyone who lived during that time need to be dead + national contrition? Is there a distinction between not forgeting and forgiving, or are both forever intertwined?

I have English and Irish relatives from way back, I have American relatives who fought for the South, and probably other relatives who did no good. Am I still, via bloodlines, partly responsible for their actions?


Danon...good point about people feeling diffrently when a war is 'local'. I get peeved when people talk about the French (and other countries) being weak militarily..perhaps if you had your country involved in so many wars, so many times on your own soil, maybe the whole idea of war might be different.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 10:30 AM
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Germany will always be my very favorite place to visit for countless reasons.

My wife organizes student trips overseas every year. Most of the kids that sign up are interested in seeing Paris, London and/or Rome. Germany is usually also on the intinerary. I would bet that 75% of the kids I talk to on the flight home tell us that Germany was their favorite. Most never had any interest in the place prior to going.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 10:39 AM
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Danon - My point was simply that there is no way to tell who was who, so why lump everyone together when actually, they may have been a person who saved lives, who was kind. You don't know if they lost family members who were homosexual, or who belonged to the SPD, or who were considered traitors, or who were Jehovah Witnesses, or maybe their child was euthenized in the nazi T-4 program, or they themselves were sterilized because of being deaf.

One knows nothing, absolutely nothing of the person one passes on the street, so why try and guess.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 11:21 AM
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There are victims that died and then there are survivors. And then there are wannabe victims from a later generation. I have no sympathy for those.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 02:50 PM
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I'm sorry, but I had to wonder how the elderly German woman working in a clock shop in the Black Forest or the stately German couple in their 70s eating breakfast next to me in a Baden-Baden hotel spent the war years. Helping their Jewish friends, neighbors, co-workers escape from the Nazis? Or doing nothing? Or actually actively participating in the lunacy that gripped Germany at the time? Yes, I understand that mass extermination extended beyond the Jewish people and I understand that it just wasn't the Germans who committed atrocities against humankind during the war, but let's face, where did it all begin? Maybe a visit to the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. or Yad Vashem in Israel should be mandatory for all humankind so that this may never happen again -- to any ethnic or racial group, not just the Jewish people.

I do not feel animosity towards Germans who had nothing to do with the war, especially those who were not even alive at the time. It just is hard to believe that 70 years ago, Europe (and the rest of the world) was torn apart by a war based on nothing more than the evil ideas and ambitions of a madman. Many of my friends will not visit Germany or buy anything manufactured by a German company. I don't go that far. Germany is a beautiful country, but I can never forget what happened there a few generations ago.

Anyone who compares Nazi Germany to America is ignorant. Racism still exists in America, no doubt, but didn't we elect the first African-American president in 2008? You will always find nuts in this world who spew verbal hatred, but the difference between using a racial slur and murdering millions of innocent people is quite pronounced.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 05:43 PM
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"Anyone who compares Nazi Germany to America is ignorant."

Sorry, you are wrong, I am not ignorant of the forces that were at work. Read Keynes's book as he anticipated the fallout of the treaty after WWI. Keynes was the economic adviser to the British delegation. For revenge and to delay Germany's return to power, much harsher terms were leveled on Germany after WWI than on France after Napoleon's romp across Europe.

If our economy was intentionally driven into the ground as Germany's was after WWI, you would find an ample number of Americans ready to vote for a "strong man" that would promise to take back what we see as our own. Hitler promised to drive France and other occupiers out of Germany, and to right the economy, which he did. He gained the backing of industrial leaders. Once in power through the electoral process, he took dictatorial control. It would have been very hard for dissenters to dislodge him.

It is only by understanding that we are subject to the same forces as others, that we(all of us) can hope to avoid the same pitfalls in our future. The real debt that we owe to victims of the holocaust is to understand the extreme factors that led Germany to take a chance on a madman.

After WWII, we learned our lesson and helped our enemies regain viable economies that have led to stable democracies.

Regards, Gary
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Old May 7th, 2010, 07:57 PM
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My father-in-law (US army vet) was a prisoner of war during WWII. His brother was also. The older he gets, the more obsessed he becomes with the war, watching everything on TV having to do with WWII, talking about what he was fed, how he was released etc. He told us we should visit a concentration camp during our upcoming trip - I have absolutely no intention to do that. Don't think I could deal with it. I want to see the pretty Germany, not the ugly. It's like its 2 separate things/places - and I don't want to mix them. I want to see castles, pretty flowers, wineries.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 08:05 PM
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"
If our economy was intentionally driven into the ground as Germany's was after WWI, you would find an ample number of Americans ready to vote for a "strong man" that would promise to take back what we see as our own."

Are there some real fact pointing towards that conclusion?

"The real debt that we owe to victims of the holocaust is to understand the extreme factors that led Germany to take a chance on a madman. "

The notion that somehow the victims of German militarism and Nazi racism should "understand" is not a new one
- apologists have been using it for a long time.
Germans loved Hitler and embraced not only the "strong man" who would return their lands, but also his murderous
ideology.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 08:52 PM
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Lots of interesting replies here. I lived in Germany during the 60's, and at that time I did wonder about the men I saw who were of an age to have been in the German military.

I mentioned this to my sister when we were in Germany in 1998. A week or so later, we were walking across a square in Konstanz, and out of the blue, she said, "There's one of them!" I saw the man to whom she was referring, and I knew exactly what she meant, without her having to explain.

But I also had the opportunity to become acquainted with German men, one of them a Lt. Colonel in the Wehrmacht who lived in my building. He'd been an American prisoner of war in Italy.

Another was a teacher I had at Gonzaga University. He was Volga Deutsch, one of the Germans living in Russia along the Volga River. When he and his family escaped from Russia, he was drafted into the German army and also ended up as a P.O.W.

Perhaps I'm naive, but I never could imagine either of these men committing atrocities.
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Old May 7th, 2010, 09:24 PM
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Danon,
Look up literature on Milgram experiment and My Lai to see what "people just like me" are capable of. Human nature applies across all cultures.
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