2 1/2 hour Connection enough at Newark for Intl. Flight?
Jan 30th, 2007, 03:56 AM
#1
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2 1/2 hour Connection enough at Newark for Intl. Flight?
Please help settle a domestic dispute...
Here are the facts: We'll be traveling on a Saturday in the summer with two small children from the West coast via US Airlines. We will be arriving at 7:30 pm and need to change to the Intl. terminal to connect to an indepently purchased flight on Malaysia Airlines heading to Europe and scheduled to depart at 10:00 pm. We will have several bags we need to claim from US Airways, change terminals, check into Malaysia Airlines and go through security again, all with two young kids.
I say we would be CRAZY to try to make the flight, but my spouse is convinced it won't be any problems at all.
What is your recommendation?
Here are the facts: We'll be traveling on a Saturday in the summer with two small children from the West coast via US Airlines. We will be arriving at 7:30 pm and need to change to the Intl. terminal to connect to an indepently purchased flight on Malaysia Airlines heading to Europe and scheduled to depart at 10:00 pm. We will have several bags we need to claim from US Airways, change terminals, check into Malaysia Airlines and go through security again, all with two young kids.
I say we would be CRAZY to try to make the flight, but my spouse is convinced it won't be any problems at all.
What is your recommendation?
Jan 30th, 2007, 05:23 AM
#2
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No, I won't do it. USAirways may be able to forward your bags to MH, but the biggest issue is that you're buying separate tickets. If you miss the connection, you could be paying for new last-minute tickets to Europe, which can run $2,000+ per person.
Also, air traffic congestion is not uncommon at EWR. One little summer thunderstorm in the NYC area and your trip is ruined.
But of course, it's all about percentage. Say 90% of the time, you'll be fine. But can you afford that 10% risk?
Also, air traffic congestion is not uncommon at EWR. One little summer thunderstorm in the NYC area and your trip is ruined.
But of course, it's all about percentage. Say 90% of the time, you'll be fine. But can you afford that 10% risk?
Jan 30th, 2007, 09:43 AM
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Your chance of making this connection are slim to none. Please check the on-time record of your incoming flight in the summer. I would be very surprised if it's on time more than 60% of the time. And on-time means wheels down - it doesn;t mean at the gate and you off the plane. The later in the day you land the greater the chance of your plane either landing late or gating late.
And key is that these are separate tickets. If you miss your connection - and I'm sure they tell you to check in 2 hours in advance (when you will most likely still be on the in-coming flight) for security purposes - your tickets will be useless. You could well end up having to buy completely new ones at the last minute rate. Not something I would care to risk.
To do this with luggage and 2 small kids I would want at least 4 hours (more if you're coming through O'Hare).
And key is that these are separate tickets. If you miss your connection - and I'm sure they tell you to check in 2 hours in advance (when you will most likely still be on the in-coming flight) for security purposes - your tickets will be useless. You could well end up having to buy completely new ones at the last minute rate. Not something I would care to risk.
To do this with luggage and 2 small kids I would want at least 4 hours (more if you're coming through O'Hare).
Jan 30th, 2007, 10:08 AM
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Generally speaking I would say you would make it. The biggest problem that I have is that coming into any NY airport in the evening is a hit and miss. It's the busiest time and you could be delayed in landing for a while. I always see so many planes holding over Newark in the evening. Also, evening thunderstorms are a common thing in the summer in New York. I would come in earlier if I could.
Jan 30th, 2007, 10:13 AM
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There was a sad story a year or two ago here about someone who did something very similar and had to pay a huge sum for six new tickets on Air France. She flew from the Bay Area and got delayed by thunderstorms, and the three-hour connection time she had allowed was not enough.
Jan 30th, 2007, 10:15 AM
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I agree with JuneAnn.
As to those on-time arrival stats..if the plane is one minute late that means it is late so even if the incoming flight IS only 60% on time what would be more helpful to know is the average number of minutes it has been late when it was late at all.
As to the weather..well, if the weather is causing a delay in landings then it is also causing a delay in take offs.
EWR has a rather efficient transportation system between terminals and i would ask (just to be certain) if the bags can be checked all the way through..and I would ask this at the check-in counter for your initail departure just to be certain. All they can say is "no."
As to those on-time arrival stats..if the plane is one minute late that means it is late so even if the incoming flight IS only 60% on time what would be more helpful to know is the average number of minutes it has been late when it was late at all.
As to the weather..well, if the weather is causing a delay in landings then it is also causing a delay in take offs.
EWR has a rather efficient transportation system between terminals and i would ask (just to be certain) if the bags can be checked all the way through..and I would ask this at the check-in counter for your initail departure just to be certain. All they can say is "no."
Jan 30th, 2007, 10:18 AM
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P_erhaps we should do a poll as to hom many hours the respondess think are enough for this connection???
Three?
Four?
Five?
And based on what criteria? The report of ONE person who didn't make a flight and posted about it here?
Three?
Four?
Five?
And based on what criteria? The report of ONE person who didn't make a flight and posted about it here?
Jan 30th, 2007, 10:20 AM
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These are two separate tickets, with no protection for the second set. That's the issue. If it weren't for the two separate ticket issue, I would happily take such a connection at EWR, and have done so with less several times.
Jan 30th, 2007, 10:28 AM
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Thank you all for your replies. Our flight is leaving the very beginning of June so I'm not sure thunderstorms will be an issue?
One more note, Malaysia airlines only has one flight daily to this European destination so I'm not sure if we missed the flight that we would be accommodated anytime soon.
One more note, Malaysia airlines only has one flight daily to this European destination so I'm not sure if we missed the flight that we would be accommodated anytime soon.
Jan 30th, 2007, 10:30 AM
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Maybe thunderstorms wouldn't be an issue, but a million other things could be. And remember you don't need to have bad weather in your departing airport to have a delay. If your aircraft has bad weather in its previous airport, that can delay you too.
Jan 30th, 2007, 10:35 AM
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I am very familiar with Newark airport as it is the airport I use all the time. I don't think a connecting time of 2.5 hours is crazy or impossible. However, if things go wrong ( your initial flight is delayed), then obviously you might not make your intl' flight. In my experience , I get my bags 30-40 mins after the plane has landed( again, if there are no delays due to thunderstorms which happened to me once and I had to wait over an hour for the bags) If your initial flight is delayed to land due to thunderstorms in the Newark area, you int'l flight in all probablity will be delayed also.
However, to be on the safe side, isn't there a way you can take an earlier flight from the west coast?
However, to be on the safe side, isn't there a way you can take an earlier flight from the west coast?
Jan 30th, 2007, 10:43 AM
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Dukey - There's no fix answer. It depends on a lot of variables, including how much the OP like to gamble. Some people goes to the casino a lot because they think <b>they</b> can beat the odds.
Things to consider:
- On-time record of the USAirways/America West flight getting into EWR. One can find that on bts.gov or flightstats.com, but flight numbers can change and summer on-time record may be quite different from other times.
- Actual time needed. The OP should be able to check the bags through. But not the boarding pass. Most international airlines close the process at 1 hour before departure for check-in. So, they just need to get checked-in by 9pm. I don't think security will be that bad, so if they are checked-in, they can get to the plane by 10pm. If not, MH will wait for them.
It doesn't matter if there's massive delay at EWR and the Malaysian flight can't take off until 3am. Chances are they'll still try to depart gate at 10pm. And they will close check-in by 9pm. So, one <b>cannot use the argument</b> that because incoming flights are delayed, the outgoing ones will close their doors late. SIMPLY NOT TRUE.
- Now, as for how much time is comfortable, there's really no one answer. Say if I'm flying Continental 1st or 3 flights to London, connecting from a separate ticket from USAirways. If I miss it, I can still standby on the other two and chances are I can make it. If things look bad, I can even tell CO to just fly me somewhere in Europe and I'll get to London by myself. They will work something out.
But the OP is flying a once-a-day Malaysian flight to Stockholm, I believe, at 10pm. If they miss it, the <b>best case scenario</b> is MH tell them to come back next day and put them on. There's zero chance they can get to Europe the next day, and MH may even just tell them to get lost.
The outcomes are significantly different, even though in both cases, one's buying separate tickets, connecting at EWR, going to Europe.
- How much is one willing to gamble? Say if the total ticket cost of the US/MH flights are $200 each, and that's the only way the OP can afford to bring her kids to Europe, then yeah, why not take the chance?
But if they're going for an important wedding, or if they're connecting to a cruise the next day - I guess the OP is not going over for sign an important contract - then of course not.
The OP's situation is most likely somewhere in between, and only she can decide how much she's willing to risk.
---
So, have I done risky connections myself on two tickets? Yes, I have, after I consider all the alternatives and the "what-ifs". But each situation is different, so the OP has to decide for herself.
Things to consider:
- On-time record of the USAirways/America West flight getting into EWR. One can find that on bts.gov or flightstats.com, but flight numbers can change and summer on-time record may be quite different from other times.
- Actual time needed. The OP should be able to check the bags through. But not the boarding pass. Most international airlines close the process at 1 hour before departure for check-in. So, they just need to get checked-in by 9pm. I don't think security will be that bad, so if they are checked-in, they can get to the plane by 10pm. If not, MH will wait for them.
It doesn't matter if there's massive delay at EWR and the Malaysian flight can't take off until 3am. Chances are they'll still try to depart gate at 10pm. And they will close check-in by 9pm. So, one <b>cannot use the argument</b> that because incoming flights are delayed, the outgoing ones will close their doors late. SIMPLY NOT TRUE.
- Now, as for how much time is comfortable, there's really no one answer. Say if I'm flying Continental 1st or 3 flights to London, connecting from a separate ticket from USAirways. If I miss it, I can still standby on the other two and chances are I can make it. If things look bad, I can even tell CO to just fly me somewhere in Europe and I'll get to London by myself. They will work something out.
But the OP is flying a once-a-day Malaysian flight to Stockholm, I believe, at 10pm. If they miss it, the <b>best case scenario</b> is MH tell them to come back next day and put them on. There's zero chance they can get to Europe the next day, and MH may even just tell them to get lost.
The outcomes are significantly different, even though in both cases, one's buying separate tickets, connecting at EWR, going to Europe.
- How much is one willing to gamble? Say if the total ticket cost of the US/MH flights are $200 each, and that's the only way the OP can afford to bring her kids to Europe, then yeah, why not take the chance?
But if they're going for an important wedding, or if they're connecting to a cruise the next day - I guess the OP is not going over for sign an important contract - then of course not.
The OP's situation is most likely somewhere in between, and only she can decide how much she's willing to risk.
---
So, have I done risky connections myself on two tickets? Yes, I have, after I consider all the alternatives and the "what-ifs". But each situation is different, so the OP has to decide for herself.
Jan 30th, 2007, 11:17 AM
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As Dukey notes, you can't necessarily make too much out of one anecdote, but fyi, I missed an international flight out of EWR a couple of years ago, with a similar or longer scheduled layover time. And I live on the East Coast, AND was flying on one ticket, one airline (Continental).
While there are numerous ways in which Continental contributed to this particular disaster, I do not think the problem is necessarily unique to EWR. What it has made me very cautious about is doing connections in the U.S. as part of an international flight, period. If you miss your flight to a U.S. city, there is usually a good chance of getting another in a few hours, or at worst, the following morning. However (at least on the East Coast), flights to Europe only leave in the evening, so when I missed my 8:30 p.m. flight, I ahd to wait an entire 24 hours to get another one, and all plans on the destination end (lodging, transport, etc.) were off by at least a day. (In my case, my employer paid for the unused hotel room, but I suspect most vacationers are on the hook.)
As others have suggested, no one can say for sure whether you will make the flight; but one of the questions is what are the consequences if you don't, and is it worth it to take that chance? There are some fairly cheap hotels near the Newark airport, including a Howard Johnson's that people have generally found to be okay. If it were me, with two small children, I would personally consider flying in the night before, if for no other reason than to break up the incredibly long amount of flying time you will have.
Good luck with whatever you decide!
While there are numerous ways in which Continental contributed to this particular disaster, I do not think the problem is necessarily unique to EWR. What it has made me very cautious about is doing connections in the U.S. as part of an international flight, period. If you miss your flight to a U.S. city, there is usually a good chance of getting another in a few hours, or at worst, the following morning. However (at least on the East Coast), flights to Europe only leave in the evening, so when I missed my 8:30 p.m. flight, I ahd to wait an entire 24 hours to get another one, and all plans on the destination end (lodging, transport, etc.) were off by at least a day. (In my case, my employer paid for the unused hotel room, but I suspect most vacationers are on the hook.)
As others have suggested, no one can say for sure whether you will make the flight; but one of the questions is what are the consequences if you don't, and is it worth it to take that chance? There are some fairly cheap hotels near the Newark airport, including a Howard Johnson's that people have generally found to be okay. If it were me, with two small children, I would personally consider flying in the night before, if for no other reason than to break up the incredibly long amount of flying time you will have.
Good luck with whatever you decide!
Jan 30th, 2007, 04:41 PM
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I'm not sure if enough has been made here of the fact that we're tlaking 4 people (4 seats) and 2 of them small kids - which will slow you down.
What one adult with minimal luggage can pull off is a whole lot different than traveling with little ones. Also - fixing a ticket/finding alternates for one seat is a lot easier than it is for 4.
You don;t say how old the kids are - and if they can manage their own carry-ons - or if you'll be dealing with strollers etc. You really need to consider this when deciding.
And - per the comment from someone above I don;t believe a plane landing 1 minute late is considered late - my understanding is that they have a 15 to 20 minute window before they're considered late.
If you have any other options (including having a TA issue this as a single itinerary) why take the risk and go through all this angst?
What one adult with minimal luggage can pull off is a whole lot different than traveling with little ones. Also - fixing a ticket/finding alternates for one seat is a lot easier than it is for 4.
You don;t say how old the kids are - and if they can manage their own carry-ons - or if you'll be dealing with strollers etc. You really need to consider this when deciding.
And - per the comment from someone above I don;t believe a plane landing 1 minute late is considered late - my understanding is that they have a 15 to 20 minute window before they're considered late.
If you have any other options (including having a TA issue this as a single itinerary) why take the risk and go through all this angst?
Jan 30th, 2007, 04:59 PM
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BTW, are we talking about HP685 PHX-EWR that in the current schedule is to arrive at 7:22p?
Flightstats.com rate the on-time performance of this flight "Very Poor", being on-time (<15min late) only 46% of the time, based on 62 flights. Average delay is 55 minutes, maximum 299 minutes.
Most disturbing is that it's "excessively late" almost 32% of the time, and canceled 3%. [I can't find the definiton of "excessively late", but it's after "late" and "very late".
Flightstats.com rate the on-time performance of this flight "Very Poor", being on-time (<15min late) only 46% of the time, based on 62 flights. Average delay is 55 minutes, maximum 299 minutes.
Most disturbing is that it's "excessively late" almost 32% of the time, and canceled 3%. [I can't find the definiton of "excessively late", but it's after "late" and "very late".
Jan 30th, 2007, 05:15 PM
#17
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Check with Malaysia airlines to see what the penalty is if you miss your flight.
My trans-Pacific flights to Asia are usually pretty flexible on the return -- I can change the dates with no penalty. And on my past trip, I actually had a HK to Taipei leg that I could change completely also. I think that I was told that I could change the departure flight on departure day even -- but there're hourly flights to Taipei more or less on CX, and I'm not sure if there was a time for the cutoff.
I'm not sure what the situation is with Malaysian airlines -- but presumably this is one leg of a flight to Asia (across the Atlantic). I'm guessing the stop is in Stockholm? Conceivably you can call the toll free number of the airline if you know you're delayed to see if you can get on the next day, but this assumes that there's no penalty and there're actually seats the next day.
My trans-Pacific flights to Asia are usually pretty flexible on the return -- I can change the dates with no penalty. And on my past trip, I actually had a HK to Taipei leg that I could change completely also. I think that I was told that I could change the departure flight on departure day even -- but there're hourly flights to Taipei more or less on CX, and I'm not sure if there was a time for the cutoff.
I'm not sure what the situation is with Malaysian airlines -- but presumably this is one leg of a flight to Asia (across the Atlantic). I'm guessing the stop is in Stockholm? Conceivably you can call the toll free number of the airline if you know you're delayed to see if you can get on the next day, but this assumes that there's no penalty and there're actually seats the next day.
Jan 30th, 2007, 05:24 PM
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This is a red flag for me...
Newark is my home airport and here in NJ we have a policy, avoid flying out of Newark in the afternoon during the Summer. Arrivals are just about as unpredictable but at least you are in the air so they have to let you land... somewhere.
The fact that your tickets are not on one ticket number offers you NO portection. If you miss your connection then no one is responsible to get you on another flight.
I recommend arriving one day early and stay in a hotel near the airport.
Newark is my home airport and here in NJ we have a policy, avoid flying out of Newark in the afternoon during the Summer. Arrivals are just about as unpredictable but at least you are in the air so they have to let you land... somewhere.
The fact that your tickets are not on one ticket number offers you NO portection. If you miss your connection then no one is responsible to get you on another flight.
I recommend arriving one day early and stay in a hotel near the airport.
Jan 30th, 2007, 05:37 PM
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Getting off-topic here:
While EWR has its problems with delays, one should note that Continental is the best in the industry in NOT CANCELING FLIGHTS. Month after month, they cancel only about 0.4% of the mainline flights, despite all kinds of weather and other problems. In the 4Q of last year, they operated 26 days within a single cancellation.
So, yes, you'll be delayed, but if you live in NYC <b>and need to go somewhere</b> like in the middle of a snowstorm or the worst summer storms, you should head to EWR and fly CO. Because while AA, DL, BA and others may have canceled all their flights out of JFK and LGA, CO most likely will still be flying out of EWR.
While EWR has its problems with delays, one should note that Continental is the best in the industry in NOT CANCELING FLIGHTS. Month after month, they cancel only about 0.4% of the mainline flights, despite all kinds of weather and other problems. In the 4Q of last year, they operated 26 days within a single cancellation.
So, yes, you'll be delayed, but if you live in NYC <b>and need to go somewhere</b> like in the middle of a snowstorm or the worst summer storms, you should head to EWR and fly CO. Because while AA, DL, BA and others may have canceled all their flights out of JFK and LGA, CO most likely will still be flying out of EWR.
Jan 30th, 2007, 07:15 PM
#20
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I vote NO on this itinerary, if only because it is causing domestic stress already, and that stress will only grow as the day of the flight draws near. Imagine the stress that will occur if, worst case scenario, you misconnect, can't make your connection on Malaysian, get stuck in NYC until space appears on a flight to get you to your destination, and have to pay the big bucks for walk-up fares.
The easy solution? Fly to Newark the day before. Stay near the airport. Take the PATH train into NYC for the day and do some sightseeing. Then get back to the airport at a nice, early time.
Trip insurance for the cost of one hotel room!
The easy solution? Fly to Newark the day before. Stay near the airport. Take the PATH train into NYC for the day and do some sightseeing. Then get back to the airport at a nice, early time.
Trip insurance for the cost of one hotel room!
