Itinerary help
 

Hello again everyone! My parents and I will be spending our Christmas holidays in 3 European cities. We are locked in on Paris (with day trip to Versailles and maybe Fontainebleu?) and Milan ( is Lake Como or Bellagio daytrip possible?). What other city can we get into the mix?

In another forum, I asked about the scenic train tours but decided against that already after what I have read on the Fodorite's replies. I really need help as I need to tell my parents about the itinerary.

Thank you in advance

How many days do you have not including arrival and departure days?

Where are you flying in/out of?

How do you plant o get from city to city?

What dissuaded you on scenic train trips?

Hello Sparkchaser!

We will be flying in from Hong Kong, and will arrive and depart from Paris. We will be staying a total of 15 to 17 nights. From city to city, we'll do it by plane ( but if it's Amsterdam, it's gonna be by train ).

What stopped me from the scenic train trips? A lot of the Fodorites said that joining the Bernina or the Glacier express around the Christmas holiday/winter time is a huge no-no. They said that I'll be lucky if it's foggy and will be able to see the mountains; moreover, it'll also be gray and dreary.

Originally, we thought of doing Paris-Amsterdam-Milan-Paris, but after watching Rick Steve's show on Amsterdam, it's kinda boring, so we erased it off our itinerary.

I wanted Rome, but a lot of travel sites said that they'll be "closed" for Christmas, including the tourist sites.

We have to return via Paris because of airline stuff.

Thank you very much

I assume you've checked average temperatures for Milan and Paris over Christmas and rainfall, if no problems, good.

Milan is perfectly nice but not in my top 50 cities are you sure you know what you are doing? If so great. Days out to say Bergamo are easy as are Como. The best Italian train website is a bit tricky as the blighters insist on you using the correst words for each station! I'd read seat61.com first and then dig into trenitalia

I guess it depends if you want to fly or train between and if you want cold, cool or warm cities.

I'd look at Barcelona, Rome and maybe Seville/Cordoba/Grenada. I might even look at Nice or Marseilles.

But if you want more cold weather I'd look at anything from Lucerne to Munich or Vienna (also depends a bit how flush your pockets are as Switzerland will cost more)

I'd also look at skyscanner for a core understanding of cheepo flights and bahn.de to look at fast trains between, given that trains leave from city centres and can be boarded with 5 minutes to spare trains are often door-to-door faster than planes inside Europe.

Closed for Christmas. Well much of Europe will be closed for at least one day (the actual day varies), you will also find that some days the airports will be heaving and finally you may find restaurants are fully booked on certain days.

Christmas is the main European festival so you have to roll with it a bit and book a few more things than you normally would. Don't give up it just needs a little more detailed planning around the 25/24th

Hello Bilboburgler! Thank you for your reply. We have to go to Milan because my mom wants to do the shopping there. Hehe

Regarding weather, I have read that sometimes it flurries or rains; but if we are lucky enough, we might just have cloudy weather. Is that right? We stayed in New York for several winters, will the snow and weather be crazy cold?

Lucerne, in my opinion, is the best place in Switzerland for normal tourists like us. But we have been there before, and yes it's expensive in Switzerland. We might have to reserve that in summer, I think.

As for Spain, my dad wants to do that by joining tour; he doesnt want to do it our own because so many places, and lots of pickpockets too.

I have considered Munich, Strasbourg, and Rome, whatcha think?

Or is it a bad idea to go to Europe around Christmas to new Year holidays? Due to weather, closings, etc?

Strasbourg would be the prettiest and relatively small/easy to ge to from Paris and there are 5 or 6 major airports nearby to get to/from Milan. It can get chilly and overcast but snow unlikely and there will be markets with hot wine. If you get bored this area has the best white wine.

Milan has a cheepo shopping mall out of town and some very high branded goods stores in town, if you want quality rather than "branding" I'd go elsewhere.

Rome may be a little warmer and wetter. There is a lot a to do, but more will be closed

Munich is very much a special taste, I don't like it others do. You're on your own. Munich could be crazy cold but doubt below -5C while NY can get below that.

Spain, well Barcelona has a street where the pickpockets are fast, even so I find having nothing to steal stops them stealing.......

Seville/Cordoba have far fewer stealth thief problems and Grenada similar. The first two are easily visited as a pair by train and you could link up to Malaga or Grenada. I struggle to image visiting Spain by tour yet Strasbourg on your own, still I'd wander around Tokyo on my own and look for help in Shanghai so what do I know?

Just a thought, if Strasbourg is on your radar then look at Reims too.

Is Strasbourg hard to do? How many days is ideal there? 1? 2?

Strasbourg is an easy train journey from Paris. It has good links to Mulhouse and a variety of other airports. It depends on exactly when you are there and how cold but you could do a escorted tour of the Alsace wine area (or hire a car and do it yourself) you could visit some of the local fortifications (very battled over area) both castles and WW1) or just visit the old (medievel) town. I'd say 1 to 2 days makes sense. There is a very under utilised government building on the outskirts, just ignore it.

You need
https://www.capitainetrain.com/
www.seat61.com
http://www.otstrasbourg.fr/en/
http://www.tourisme-alsace.com/en
to start off with

There are also two tourist websites for north and south Alsace. You could also pop across the border to Germany

Basically the place runs on white wine, big cakes, pork and big cakes with pork in it.

How about Venice - ending there from Milan and flying home from there? Venice is great at any time of year - the Lakes not so I would think in winter - cool dank and rainy to be expected.

Except for the mountain, Scandinavia and european plains (Vienna, Prague etc) winter weather is usually chilly and rainy but not as cold as the US. (If it;s rainy it can;t be cold -cold would be snow). But you will need winter clothes and boots.

BUT, there are no guraantees and you can get some snow and cold in most of the places you are mentioning. And yes, almost everything is closed Christmas Day and New Year's Day and many things on Christmas Eve and NYEve. You will have to check details on the cities you will be in and what your options are.

If you think NY is crazy cold then you need to be careful because there are many places that are a lot colder than that in winter. I would not head to Germany, Austria, Hungary or Switz - you could het heavy snow in any of those places.

Perhaps do Paris, Milan (can;t think why) and Rome. More than a sprinkle of snow is rare in any of these.

ok now I need to ask this... what is wrong with Milan? many are surprised with the itinerary, please do enlighten me.

thank you

You are certainly right to ask, and please realize you are basically conversing with 2 strangers who are full of opinions about Italy and Europe which may have absolutely nothing to do with what you enjoy.

First of all, I have gone to Milan during New Year's week and had a very nice time. All the stores are open, everyone is having fun, the shopping is great, and the tourist sights are not crowded and the food in Milan is just right for winter (have a risotto! Drink hot chocolate!) The year I was there, it was frigid -- bring out your heavy-coat cold -- but it was not wet or snowing.

However, (second of all), I live in italy, not far from Milan, and there can be days in December and January when it rains so hard the subways flood or it snows so much it is really a pain. No one knows if it will happen on the days you are there.

But Milan is an extremely important city to the Italian economy, and when the weather gets tough, they get things back up and running as quickly as they can.

If it is brilliantly sunny and you are dressed warmly, you can have fun with a day trip to Lago di Como to see the amazing views. But if it is cold in Milan, you just have to figure it will be really REALLY cold once you step off the train at the lake. So bundle up if you want to go.

If the weather is terrible, think about going to Bologna instead. Many of its streets are covered with archways, and the food is fun. Someplace else you can go for fun shopping and day trip from Milan is Torino (Turin) -- plus it has a fantastic movie museum with a great rooftop view of Alps on a clear day. But keep in mind that Torino is usually feels colder than Milan, even if it is sunny.

Before I moved to italy I very often traveled to italy over Christmas and new Year's. It's a fun time -- but you can be surprised at how crowded someplace like Florence or Venice is with tourists. But everything is open, and most of the time, weather didn't interfere with my travel plans. But sometimes it did -- but then again, I've had flights cancelled at every time of the year due to thunderstorms, fog, you name it. And sometimes it is just too rainy to be comfortable in Spring or Fall -- or too hot in summer.

Hope that helps.

I forgot to add:

A great deal of Rome, especially its shops, will be open in the morning on Christmas day, and all the churches will be open. If you want to go to Rome, it is a fairly fast train ride from Milan. Plus, it often has pleasant weather for walking around in late December and early January. Lots of tourists, though, and slightly higher prices for hotel rooms. It's popular at Christmas (far from being "closed".)

I just read this comment and have no idea why someone would post it:

"Milan has a cheepo shopping mall out of town and some very high branded goods stores in town, if you want quality rather than "branding" I'd go elsewhere."

I really doubt reading it that the poster has ever done any serious shopping in Milan, where the quality across the board can be exceptional and some of the finest in Europe. And if he seriously believes what he wrote, please tell us all what better quality goods he bought where in Italy, and why Milan was inadequate for his demanding shopping needs.

Here's another nonsensical comment without foundation:

"And yes, almost everything is closed Christmas Day and New Year's Day and many things on Christmas Eve and NYEve."

The only time I have ever visited Da Vinci's Last Supper in Milan was on New Year's Eve. Almost every museum in Italy is open on Dec 31. Thousands of Italians pour into Milan for last minute shopping before Xmas, and everything is going wild, even on Xmas morning for food shops. There are sales in January in Milan, and thousands more pile in for those. In Rome, the period of Christmastime and New Year's is HIGH SEASON. Everything is open except for some brief closures on Christmas Day.

yes, you should check about particular museums (some will always close on a Monday or Tuesday) and shop hours too. But basically you've just got people who NEVER travel in this time frame spreading myths and misinformtion--- and guess what? They will want to talk you out of the trip you want to take in favor of something they think would be fun. I don't know why, and I am sure you appreciate all responses, but keep it in perspective.

The post about Christmas eve/day and New Years eve/day did not refer to Milan but to most places in europe - since the OP seems to have several options they are considering.

Obviously there are celebrations on New Year's eve in most places but that doesn;t mean every museum/attraction is open - but in many places the other days are more family holidays (and can be different days in different places) but going to europe and assuming everything will be open is foolhardy. Obviously you need to check on the specific places you want to go.

Thank you very much Sandralist!!!