Itinerary Advice - Please Comment
 

Hi all,

I will be headed to Europe for the third time this summer, and I want to do it right. My first time was spent entirely in one country (the Czech Republic) with a stopover in London and a day trip to Vienna. My second time was a hurried Spring Break through Dublin, Liverpool, London, Barcelona and Madrid (well, it was a little longer than your typical Spring Break - I was okay with missing the first week of classes). This time, I want to see as many places as possible without stressing myself out.

Here's my tentative itinerary. The days I have listed are full days, meaning I will wake up and go to sleep in the same city. A day with an asterisk (*) means I will have almost a full day in that city, since I'll arrive early in the morning, or leave late at night (yay for overnight trains and red-eye flights). I do not count days in which I am going from one place to another, since I have to take into consideration checking in/out, hostel setup time, and how tired I will be. Having said all that, what do you guys think of the following plan? Opinions on each city would also help.

London: 1 day*, 1 day, 2 nights
Berlin: 3 days, 4 nights
Munich: 3 days, 4 nights, day trip to Salzburg
Vienna: 1 day*, 1 night (thought it was nice the first time around, wanted to come back, but didn't want to take away any more time from cities that I haven't visited yet)
Venice: 1 day*, 2 days, 3 nights
Rome: 3 days, 4 nights
Milan: Stopover on the way to Paris (I don't care too much for shopping, plus I'm broke anyway, but there were no direct trains to Paris from Rome. I thought it might be worth getting out of the train station and seeing the city for a bit.)
Paris: 1 day*, 3 days, 4 nights
Brussels: 1 day, 2 nights, might try to squeeze Bruges in there if Brussels sucks
Amsterdam: 2 days, 3 nights, day trip to Rotterdam on the second day

I'm flying out of Amsterdam back to London on the morning of my return to the States. My flight is scheduled to land at 7 in the morning, and my flight out of London back to LA is scheduled to take off at 10 in the morning. I think that's plenty of time to grab my luggage and check back in, but I could be wrong. Please tell me if I am. And yes, I checked, and I will be flying into and out of the same London airport.

Naturally, I'd love to hear that my itinerary is perfect, but I know it's not. Should I cut anything? Add more days to a certain city? Please help!

Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer me.

I would put Paris second (Eurostar from London to Paris). After Paris, fly to Rome (budget airline EasyJet from Paris Orly to Rome Ciampino)which is cheaper than an overnight train (I looked at a random date in June and the fare was under 50€). Rome, Venice (drop Milan from your schedule),Vienna, Munich, Berlin, Brussels (might drop this too), Amsterdam.

For budget airlines:
www.whichbudget.com

Well, first of all, this is going to be a splendid, long, interesting journey. Interesting concept, just big cities in different countries; great idea. Above all since you don't assign too short time to each city. Well, of course you could spend the whole trip in Rome without getting bored; EVERY stay is too short for Rome. But to get a first impression, I think your plan is excellent.
Into details:
One glitch in your itinerary IMO is that you're assigning too much time to Munich (unless beer is your main interest, of course - just kidding). Munich is nice for a German city, and actually not a bad place to live there (for who can afford it, which is not that easy), but... I'm not sure I'd visit it as a tourist, and if you do, one day is perfectly enough. I'd maybe base myself in Salzburg, and do the day trip to Munich instead... although I admit that in Munich, you'll dine at really excellent restaurants if you've done your homework before travelling (of course, finding good restaurants in Germany ALWAYS requires thorough research), while in Salzburg, it's generally difficult to impossible to get a decent meal. But on the other hand, Salzburg is about 1 zillion times prettier than Munich... Anyway, for sightseeing, one day each is sufficient, and if you want to add a second sightseeing day, then add it in Salzburg, there's more to see there. The time you're gaining on this stretch of your trip will be more than useful in Venice, Rome, or Milan, where the time you've assigned so far is scarce in comparison.

And then, you're planning a day trip to Rotterdam, may I ask why? Any particular interest in deck cranes and gross registered tons? Brussels won't suck if you know how to "use" it. Get yourself a really good guidebook, make a short visit to Grand Place, see Manneken Pis if need be, and for the rest of the time, go Art Nouveau!! There's plenty of excellent Art Nouveau throughout the city, and it's extraordinarily enjoyable. Don't miss the Victor Horta Museum, in the mansion he had built for himself (Horta was Belgium's foremost Art Nouveau architect.) And if you're interested in such a thing, the automobile museum is excellent & fun. In any case, I wouldn't squeeze Bruges; your itinerary's greatest advantage is that you don't "squeeze" anything anywhere else.

It means underestimating Milano to associate it with "shopping" only. Maybe you should spend one day & night there! Milano, though not a "pretty" city, has excellent architecture & art, and I don't think of Leonardo's all-but-invisible Last Supper now! Rather of S. Ambrogio and S. Maria delle Grazie (Bramante's best achievement IMO)... and for opera lovers, the Scala Museum is a must, of course!

Thanks to both of you, your replies are much appreciated!

Kybourbon,

Your order was what I had initially planned, but the problem was Berlin. I really, really want to visit that city, but it is so out of the way as far as trains are concerned! 6 hours to Amsterdam or Munich. I thought it would make the most sense to fly there from London, and only have to deal with the one long train ride during the day. The other long train rides I have planned would take place at night.

To me, the only reason to put Paris immediately after London would be to take the chunnel ride. Is it worth the experience?

Franco,

Thank you! Most of the advice that I saw in the forums recommended alternating big cities with smaller towns, but I just love to visit the cities, plus I enjoy a good night out. When I was in CZ I spent some time in smaller towns and in the country; turns out, it's not really my thing. I appreciate your not criticizing my wish to keep my trip in urban areas.

I noticed that you seem to hold a different opinion on certain cities than many of the others that I've read or heard. You are the first person to recommend less time in Munich and more time in Milan. You are also the first person to say skip Bruges, while everyone else says skip Brussels and go straight to Bruges. Interesting!

The reason I gave Munich 3 days is because most people I talked to have said that it's a great place to visit. All the advice (that I read) in the forums said to spend as much time there as possible. However, I have also been told the same thing about Salzburg as you are saying, so I will take your advice on Salzburg into consideration. I think I'll just have to wait and see what other replies I get. Good thing this itinerary isn't set in stone.

I agree with you about Venice and Rome. If only I had more time. As for Milan, in all honesty I was already uninterested in visiting that city, at least for more than a day. This was before I heard from friends who have been there that there isn't much to see or do besides shop. I might be wrong, and it could turn out to be the best place on earth. Again, I'll have to wait for more responses before making the final decision.

Rotterdam: My friend's coworker was Dutch, and he recommended I visit Rotterdam if I was ever in Holland.

Brussels/Bruges: Which one? Doesn't look like I'll have time for both, unless I rearrange my schedule. Need more opinions!

Hi ere,

You are adding 6 hrs + having to change trains going to Vienna.

I would add that night to Paris (or London).

>My flight is scheduled to land at 7 in the morning, and my flight out of London back to LA is scheduled to take off at 10 in the morning.<

Same airport - correct? If so, you have a good chance of making the connection.

Have you looked into flying into London and out of Rome?

London, Amsterdam, Brussels, Paris, Berlin, (Vienna), Munich, Venice, Rome.

I also suggest checking www.whichbudget.com for discount flights.

Enjoy your adventure.

((I))

I think you should consider more budget flights and less long train journeys.

Eren, yes I'm guilty of deviating from the standard recommendations, and even regularly so; I'm convinced the usual "must-sees" everybody seems to recommend are for the most part purely arbitrary, and they result in almost every traveller doing the same trips... if you consider making a poll what to include and what to skip, you'll end up doing the same trip, too. Rather, I suggest doing some deeper research on your own along the lines of the replies you're getting here or elsewhere...

Without wanting to disappoint you about your friends, honestly, I wouldn't rely on any other advice they may have given you if they told you Milano is interesting for shopping only! Sorry, but if - for example - they're subsuming a chief work of Bramante under "not much to see or do"... well...

Brussels or Bruges - I didn't say Bruges isn't worth seeing, get me right. BUT I think it doesn't absolutely fit into your "cities only" itinerary: it's a really small, sleepy town, and in fact, not even a town but rather a stage set, and the play being given there day by day is "oh, what a lovely medieval town", with exclusively tourists as the audience. After dark, when the tour busses have left, there's no life at all in Bruges... of course, Brussels is a city with serious urban problems, but if you stick to my advice (and if you have any interest at all in Art Nouveau), I assure you you'll like it better than Bruges, which is really an open air museum.

Munich, once again: actually, I like Munich, but I don't think it's overly interesting. It's a good base for daytrips into the Bavarian countryside (the kind of travel you don't like...), where there are plenty of really good baroque and rococo churches. Munich itself has one excellent rococo church, as well (the Asamkirche, after its architects, two brothers), and a pleasant Renaissance church, as well (St. Michael), but IMO, it's just not up to the standard of your other destinations.

this sounds like an amazing trip! :) i dont really have recommendations on the length of days to spend in various cities, but i do second the recommendation to try to fly more. while planning my own upcoming trip, i found the most amazing website while googling european budget airlines - www.skyscanner.com . it truly is terrific and will give you an idea of when and how much flights are. i was even bored enough to double check them (using another website that lists all the budget airlines that fly in and out of the various countries we were planning on visiting), and they were 100% accurate :) definitely try flying from berlin-munich - i just booked flights last night for us for ~25 euros/person after all the fees, which is terrific for a 1 hr flight that would otherwise be a 6+ hr train trip. flights from london to berlin seem to take a little less than 2 hrs, but the price will vary of course depending on your days of travel. if you run out of things to do in munich, you might consider going to the castles nearby - a 2 hr train trip away. best of luck in your planning! :)

Hi Clue,

Am I correct that skyscanner only works for Round Trip flights?

((I))

Ira - You can uncheck the return.

I prefer Brugge over Brussels, so I would train from Paris to Brussels, stash my luggage and spend a few hours there, then continue on to Brugge for two nights.

If you want to visit Rotterdam (I kind of like the city, but then, I enjoy architecture), stop there on your train travel between Belgium and Amsterdam (no need to backtrack). Get off at Rotterdam Centraal, stash your luggage, then immediately take the train to Rotterdam Blaak. When you walk outside the station, you will be surrounded by several interesting architectural buildings, including the train station, and the Kijk Kubus.

I think you have picked a nice mixture of large cities to visit, and adequate time in each - including Munich (have you considered a day trip to Dachau?).

Robyn :)>-

>> Am I correct that skyscanner only works for Round Trip flights?

hi ira,
thanks for your question! :) skyscanner is good for oneway trips too (thanks kybourbon) - isnt it amazing? :) this is how i found that it would be only reasonable to fly from berlin-munich, and not so much to/from the other cities on our itinerary. i really think skyscanner simplifies budget european travel planning - i love it! :)

Wow! I am overwhelmed (in a good way) by all the replies in such a short period of time. Your eagerness to help makes me really happy I joined this site!

A few clarifications on what I like and what I don't like:

I LOVE architecture. So Rotterdam is in.

I also love art and history, which is one of the reasons I'm assigning more time to places like Berlin, Rome, and Paris.

I'm a classically trained musician, but I appreciate all kinds of music. (My day in Liverpool was a pilgrammage to the Beatles.) Salzburg is definitely a must, and in many ways so is Vienna. Only problem with Vienna is that it's out of the way, and I've already been there. I'm considering changing my overnight stay in Vienna to an overnight stay in Salzburg, since it is only 1.5 hours away from Munich by train (but then again, it's close enough that it would make a good day trip), and skipping Vienna altogether. However, this idea is much less appealing to me.

I have no problem with spending the DAY in a small, sleepy town if there is something to look at - I really enjoyed UNESCO heritage sites like Cesky Krumlov and Telc in CZ - but I would rather spend the NIGHT in a place that stays up after 9 pm. The reason I said smaller towns are not really my thing is because I spent several nights in the country wide awake long after everyone had gone to sleep.

My plan for Bruges was similar to Artstuff's idea: check in at the hostel and drop off my luggage after arriving in Brussels (train ride from Paris is only 1.5 hours, so I won't be wiped out), continue on to Bruges for the day, and come back to Brussels for the night. I would wake up in Brussels the next day and have the entire day and night there. Similarly, I heard the Bavarian countryside was lovely, so I might want to head there for a few hours from my base in Munich, but I wouldn't want to be "stuck" in a town with no nightlife.

Should I change my 3 days Munich/1 day Vienna to 3 days Munich/1 day Salzburg? Or 2 days Munich/2 days Salzburg?

I agree that budget planes are more economical. In fact, Ryanair was the only carrier that offered a direct flight from Dublin to Liverpool, and obviously I had to fly to get from London to Barcelona. But for Spring Break I was on a very tight schedule (as you can see, I've learned my lesson), so I had no problem with "locking in" my travel plans. One of the reasons I want to travel by train this time around is because I don't have to book the ride ahead of time, and have a little more flexibility. What if Berlin isn't all that I thought it would be? What if the French are so terribly snobby in Paris that I can't wait to get out of there?

The exception to this are the overnight trains of course; I read that you do have to reserve an overnight train ahead of time. In the case of overnight trains I am considering changing them to flights for that very reason, but at the same time, I also want to have the overnight train experience at least once!

Is it possible to book a flight on short notice and still get a good price?

Hi KY,

>You can uncheck the return.<

Thank you.

Can I do an open jaw?

((I))

Hi Er,

>Should I change my 3 days Munich/1 day Vienna to ..... 2 days Munich/2 days Salzburg?<

That's what I would do.

((I))

Ira - You just book the flights as one-way tickets. One-ways aren't marked up like in the US so no need for open jaw selections. You just really have to watch check-in times on teh budget airlines (can't just be in line by the stated time - you have to have completed the check-in process) and luggage restrictions.

Okay, how about this itinerary?

London: 2 days*, 2 nights.
Berlin: 3 days, 4 nights.
Vienna: 1 day, 2 nights. Is the side trip to Bratislava worth an extra day?
Salzburg: 1 day, 2 nights
Munich: 2 days*, 2 nights
Venice: 3 days*, 3 nights.
Rome: 3 days, 4 nights.
Paris: 3 days, 4 nights.
Brussels: 1 day, 2 nights.
Amsterdam: 2 days, 3 nights.

Sorry Franco, but I think I'm going to have to fly to Paris from Rome to save time. Maybe on my next trip I'll do Italy more in-depth, and include Florence! But for now Milan has to be cut.

Sorry, forgot to mention that Berlin to Vienna is a one hour flight.

>You just book the flights as one-way tickets. One-ways aren't marked up like in the US <

Thank you, KY

((I))

HI eren,

>Okay, how about this itinerary?<

Tiring, if not exhausting, but doable.

((I))

Eren, no need to be sorry about Milano. Of course it's preferable if you can save time by flying, and I, too, don't think Milano is worth going from Rome to Paris by train ONLY to spend one night in Milano (not because of the sights - but the city is just lacking charm). I just thought that IF you are stopping there anyway, it would make more sense to stop for a night rather than just a few hours...

As for Bratislava, this has become a very charming and likeable small city over the last years; as far as sights, it's only in the Munich league (if at all), but it's really nice, at least with nice weather; when I saw Bratislava the last time, it was in summer, and the was much outdoor life (dining, drinking, sitting...) throughout the center. All in all, a pretty baroque city (or rather a town), but don't expect first-rate sights.

And as for your question about booking a flight on short notice and still getting a good price, no that's not possible with budget airlines. As a rule of thumb, it's mostly safe to assume that the later you book, the more expensive will the tickets be.

All in all, I for one think it's a great itinerary now. And I don't think it's exhausting if you don't MAKE it exhausting by trying to see "everything" in the cities you're visiting. If you just know that of most places, you'll only get a first impression, then it's more than doable IMO: enjoyable.

Thank you again for all your replies.

I posted this topic on another travel forum. After reading all the replies here, there, and doing research on the internet, this is what I've come up with:

London: 3 days*, 3 nights.
Berlin: 3 days, 4 nights.
Vienna: 1 day, 2 nights.
Salzburg: 3 days*, 3 nights.
Munich: Day trip from Salzburg with de facto overnight stay. If Munich's nightlife is any good I'll probably be up all night anyway. Return to Salzburg at whatever time I feel like the next day.
Venice: 3 days*, 3 nights.
Rome: 3 days, 4 nights.
Paris: 3 days, 4 nights.
Brussels: 1 day, 2 nights. Day trip to Bruges upon arrival, full day in Brussels.
Amsterdam: 2 days, 3 nights.

Hi er,

Still tiring, possibly exhausting, and doable.

Take lots of pix. You aren't going to remember much. :)

((I))

Enjoy your trip! And after coming home, don't fail to tell us how you liked it (if you post a note on this very thread, you make sure that all who have contributed here will notice).

Thanks everyone! I'll let you know how it goes. Unfortunately the trip isn't until late summer so most of you will have probably moved on by then. However, I am sure it will be a blast.

Hey eren,

We never leave. :)

Just post your trip report here.

((I))

Indeed, Eren. We don't move anywhere (travels apart). This is not one of THOSE boards. Just click on the user names, and you'll see how long everybody's in. And in particular, I think the editors would rather shut this whole forum down than let ira move on. Fodor's is unthinkable without him!