Itinerary Advice - First Visit To Europe
 

Hello all,

This is my first post to the discussion boards. I am visiting Western Europe for the first time ever in October. I've actually only flown here in the States twice before, so I'm a little nervous about this whole thing. I'm 25 and will be traveling alone.

I have done lots of research concerning which places to visit and how many days to stay in each place. I'm interested in exploring each city's culture, visiting museums and historical attractions, and going out to the gay bars/clubs on the weekends. I'm hoping some of you will be able to help with any constructive advice on my itinerary and whether or not the routes should be changed a bit. I've done my best to find train times, but that gets kind of complicated, as many of you may know:

Fly into London
London with day trips to Bath, Windsor, and York (8 nights)
Paris w/ day trip to Bruges (4 nights)
Nice (2 nights)
Cinque Terre (3 nights)
Rome (4 nights)
Florence (3 nights)
Venice (2 nights)
Kandersteg (3 nights)
Amsterdam w/ day trips to Haarlem, The Hague, Leiden, Delft (7 nights)

I've worked it out so that I'm in the Big 4 (London, Paris, Rome, & Amsterdam) on the weekends, so I can go clubbing while I'm there. Is there any part of my itinerary that should be changed, or is it fairly reasonable?

I was originally going to visit Gimmelwald instead of Kandersteg, due to favorable reviews at a different European travel forum; however, based on some searches I have done here at Fodor's, I realized Kandersteg is more my style. Gimmelwald seems a little too desolate for me. Any other Switzerland villages that are similar to Kandersteg that I should research?

Thanks much,

Toby

Hi
I'd take 2-3 nights from somewhere (Amsterdam?) and add them on to Paris, another one, perhaps, added on to Venice
Other than that, it sounds wonderful

I agree with Elaine. I would spend a couple of additional days in Paris and at least one more day in Venice. You could cut a day from Nice, Cinque Terre and Amsterdam. Other than that, you have a good itinerary. Have a wonderful time!

Call and get the free European Planning & Rail Guide (800-441-9413) as it offers many different itinerary samples and a sketch on each country with rail map - lots of invaluable info. I'd go to Grindelwald over Kandersteg if it were my first trip to Europe - Kandersteg is fine if you're 50 or over - otherwise Grindelwald, to me the most beautiful location in Switzerland, at the foot of glacier-clad peaks, is popular with young travelers as well and has a wealth of hostels and dorms that are lacking in other areas of Switzerland. (Grindelwald is just above Interlaken). I'd say stay in Bruges in between Amsterdam and paris - too far to day trip and enjoy - at least three hours each way and the city is most magical at night when the bridges and canals are lit and the day tripping hoardes have gone. Obviously the eurail youthpass is a great deal for you. And you can also get a $45 London-Paris Eurostar chunnel fare if under 26. And the England BritRail youthpass will save you lots on train fares for your UK plans - a no-brainer.

Hi rocklit,

O well, I think you've got some huge leaps here. For example, Venice to Kandersteg is 8h42 with a change in Brig. That's not too bad as you can do it with a night train that leaves Venice at 23.05 and you can sleep through until the change at 06.15.

But the next one, Kandersteg to Amsterdam, is just a bear. The schedules show it's about 10h06 with two changes or around 9h06 with four changes. I couldn't find a night train w/o changes.

Maybe you can substitute Luzern (yes, it's a city, but it's beautiful, scenic, and charming), which is only an hour from Zurich. Then you may be able to find a cheap flight between Amsterdam & Zurich.

Or maybe drop Switzerland from this trip and add the days onto Paris. Spend some decent time in Switzerland on your next trip.

s

You have done a really decent job for a first ever plan.

As the others say - you will want 1 or, better yet, 2 more days in Paris. And an additional day in venice would be good.

I am definitely not a Switzerland expert but swandav's comments look to be very useful re your transport problems for that bit of your itinerary.

choosing where to cut to gain the extra days for Paris and Venice is really your choice -- but I would take a day from CT and a day from Amsterdam.

It looks to me as if you've done a good job of planning, though I agree with the others about adding time to Paris and Venice. Also, you might consider going to Rome on another trip--it's a long haul for this trip.

Also, check out Rick Steves and Lets Go guidebooks--I believe they have information on gay travels in Europe. Have a great trip!

Thanks so much for all your feedback. I did not expect that much advice so quickly. I have so much to think about :-)

I was having the same reservations about not having enough days for Paris and Venice. Cutting from Amsterdam seems like a good option, since it's a small city. I think I may just extend the trip a little, even though it will kill my budget. I'm living on student loans and taking online courses while I visit Europe.

I just can't eliminate Switzerland. I want my first visit to Europe to include Switzerland - I find the people and culture especially fascinating.

PalQ, thanks for mentioning Grindelwald. I had referred to Gimmelwald, which is a very small community (150 people) that has two hostels and is apparently undiscovered (http://www.gimmelwald.ch/english/activities/hiking.htm). However, I'm beginning to wonder if it will be too isolated for my taste. What do y'all think after reading about it at the link?

I'll check out Luzern. What about Bern? I ordered free guides and brochures on MySwitzerland.com, so I'll be investigating further.

I too agree that you've done a great job with your itinerary. It would be a shame to cut from Amsterdam, not only because it's a great city, but it's got a great gay/club night life scene, as does Antwerp, which is close to Bruges. You may want to consider staying in Antwerp on the way to A'dam and make your day trip to Bruges from there. Have fun.

Hi Again rocklit,

There are some folks here at Fodors who absolutely love Gimmelwald, so do a text search here to read some more about it before you write it off. There are also Muerren and Wengen, both car-free mountain villages that are more accessable than Gimmelwald.

I did some checking for you on www.whichbudget.com (for budget airlines) and found that both Airberlin and Niki fly between Zurich & Amsterdam; the flight on Airberlin is about four hours and costs between 65E and 150E depending on when you book. The train trip from Kandersteg to the Zurich airport takes 2h27, and it is direct (0 changes); from Wengen or Muerren, the train ride will be about 3h30 with 3-5 changes. So figuring seven total travel hours, that's still quite a lot of travelling.

I'm glad you ordered brochures from the Swiss Tourist Office, but be warned: you're gonna wanna see everything they show you!! I think it's very, very hard to find only one place to visit there as it's ALL so good.

You can check rail schedules at www.rail.ch.

Best of luck as you figure out the Switzerland - Amsterdam portion!

s

rocklit,

I just had an idea. Why not go London-Amsterdam (5h56 with a change in Brusseles -- or look for a budget flight), then Amsterdam-Paris (4h09), then continue with your plan and end your journey by flying out of Zurich?

s

Rocklit,

I'm just guessing, but if New York is any comparison, I wouldn't be too concerned about making it to the largest cities (London especially - Amsterdam may be different because it is so small) on the weekends to hit the best parties. It is my experience that the best nights to go out in large cities are weekdays, not weekends. I think that this is especially true for gay nights at hot clubs, which tend to be on random Mondays or Tuesdays, not weekends.

Just wanted to make this point, to perhaps give you a little more flexibility in scheduling.

Enjoy your trip - I am jealous!

Hi R,

I also suggest takin 2 nights from Amsterdam.

The CT is not at its best in Oct. Two nights is really enough.

You can now add 3 nights to Paris.

Check www.whichbudget.com for cheap flights between cities.

I also suggest London-Amsterdam-Paris.
You can visit Bruges on your way to Paris.

Paris-Nice-CT-Rome-Florence-Venice is fine.

Since Switzerland is a must, I suggest you fly home from there.

I don't think tht you need more time in Venice on this trip. It is best seen with someone you love.

Have a nice visit.

((I))

ira, I'm shocked! shocked! about your saying not to add a day onto Venice.
:)

After all, it may very well be the place to MEET someone you love. And if not, the heck with that, it's still VENICE.

Hi elaine,

Don't think that it was done without a great deal of soul searching. :)

((I))

KikiLee has a very good point. I totally glossed over the "big cities on the weekends" bit.

In general, small towns/villages are livlier on weekends and big cities on weekdays. Much of the "party scene" in London for instance is after work and a lot of Londoners leave town on the weekend. Not that is it deserted - but drinks after work is much more common than "meet you Sat. night for drinks"

So don't avoid the cities at wekends - there is still lots do see/do and people around - but don't worry a bit if while fine tuning your itinerary some of the big cities move to mid week stays.

Not to mention that the truly fabulous (and for your first trip to Europe you clearly want to party with the truly fabulous) aren't bogged down with boring old 9-to-6 jobs, and prefer to party until the wee hours of Tues mornings, when they don't have to rub shoulders with us boring old slobs who actually have to go home early to make it to work the next day. :-)

You know, a few weeks ago, I thought I had found the most helpful forum on Europe at another website, but that was nothing compared to the wonderful feedback and advice I have received from all of you :-) Thanks so much. I am so excited!

That's so true concerning the nights at the clubs. I should know this. Even in the small college town in which I live, the big night at the one gay club here is on a Thursday. Duh! Plus, the weekends in the big cities in Europe will be full of tourists, I'm sure, so it shouldn't be a factor for me.

Searching on www.studentuniverse.com, where I have found the cheapest international flight rates, I notice that Virgin Atlantic has available flights that are non-stop, but only flying to and from London - they are under $500, so that sounds good. I have an irrational fear of flying, so non-stop flights sound good to me :-)

Swandav2000, thanks for your help w/ the rail schedules. RailEurope aggravates me. I'll check out the site you mention. I've read a lot about Gimmelwald, but I'm thinking it may be too quiet. I could always test it out, and then continue to another area if I don't like it. I'll have to do more research on the Swiss cities / villages.

Thanks, everyone.

Re Gimmelwald, what are you looking for in the tiny village? Beautiful views, laid-back folks, great hiking? Yes, it's remote, and yes, it's fabulously beautiful, but yes, it's also tiny, tiny. As I recall, when we went there (day trip), there were two hostels and no stores or restaurants (though that was in 1990).

Grindelwald, just down the valley, is much bigger. It's pretty touristy, but that's because it's a perfect base for sightseeing and day hiking in the area. If you have a car, you can easily drive to the cablecar to Gimmelwald for the day, and I bet there's public transportation to that point too.

I have also visited Kandersteg, but that was also back in 1990, and I don't remember a lot except that it was (also) beautiful. My notes say that it's a village in a wide valley; as I recall, the village was not very big. We only stayed there for one day (in between visiting Zermatt and Gsteig).

Personally, I'd chose Grindelwald or Zermatt (another fabulous place) over Kandersteg, but we do a lot of day-hiking, and that's what we did in all of those locations. Of course, in October, I don't know what your options would be on the hiking front anyway. You might want to check all of these locations and see how much is open in October. As I recall, in some mountain towns we've visited in late September, some places (restaurants, etc.) were closed (it being somewhat in between the summer season and the ski season). I don't know if this is applicable to wherever you decide to go in Switzerland, but you should check to see if that might be the case.

Have a wonderful time!

Holland LAST? That's a long backtrack from Italy!

How about taking the ferry (or fly) from England to Holland, then working your way south and flying home from Italy? Stena Line runs a high-speed (4 hrs) catamaran between Harwich and Hoek van Holland, with a Eurailpass discount.

Good train schedules can be found at

<b>http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en
</b>

Thanks Lexma. I have read that Gimmelwald still has just two hostels, the Mountain Hostel and a smaller place. I've also read that there are still no stores.

I'm looking for a charming Swiss town, with breathtaking views, while also providing things to do, such as pubs, maybe a museum or two, and cafes.

Zermatt certainly seems ideal. I read about it at virtualtourist.com and in my brochures.

I think I will take an overnight train to Zermatt, stay there for a full day and night, then head to Bern, stay there a couple of nights, and then take an overnight train to Amsterdam. Two overnight trains in a five-week visit is tolerable, right? I've heard both good and bad views on the night trains. I'm a heavy sleeper, and I'll be so tired, I'm thinking the overnight train won't be that big of a deal.

Hey Robespierre, I was wrote my reply before I could see your post. You make a good point. Do you suggest to zig-zag from France to Switzerland, then down to Italy? The flights tend to be cheaper when flying to and from London, so I'll have to see how that balances out.

It's funny you mention that rail site. While I was researching a few minutes ago, I came across that site, www.eurorailways.com, and was so happy to find it. I used it a few weeks ago, but had forgotten the site's name. The timetables are so convenient for searching internationally. I think raileurope.com sucks. I'm not sure why so many use that site instead.

Have you priced an &quot;open jaw&quot; ticket? Say into London out of Rome (or something). Sometimes you can find them at a comparable price, and then you can plan your travel in one direction. This might work out better than making a big loop to return to the same city/airport you arrived.

If the open jaw works out (although with a train pass you might not care), this routing will avoid the most backtracking:

UK
Low Countries
Northern Germany
France
Southern Germany*
Switzerland*
Italy

* Either order

If you <i>must</i> fly in and out of London, then this would work:

UK
France
(Spain?)
Italy
Switzerland
Germany
Low Countries
UK

(Obviously, both the circular and linear routes will work in either direction.)

However: if you're <i>really</i> intrepid and willing, you can use the trains as hostels. There are several through trains (no changes) that go up and down the continent overnight where you can sleep &quot;free.&quot; They're not <u>extremely</u> comfortable, but if you're young and resilient, you may find they're at least as tolerable as many hostels.

Here's an on-line rail map if you need one:

<b>http://www.railpass.com/maps/whole.htm</b>

Have fun with your planning, and come back here with questions about youth/student deals. There are many very knowledgeable people here who will be glad to help.

Gimmelwald is neither isolated nor desolate. Going one direction a 2-minute cable car ride puts you in Murren. Going the other direction, a 2-minute ride plus a 5-minute bus puts you in Lauterbrunnen.

Gimmelwald itself has a hotel, 2 B&amp;B's and a great hostel with lots of 20-somethings.

But if you are interested in clubbing, then it's definitely not the place to be.

Pictures:

http://www.photoworks.com/share/shar...BC6E&amp;cb=PW

Thanks, Robespierre ... I'm going to have to think about which route to take.

Edward, thanks for sharing your slideshow. Those were some of the best photos I have seen taken of Switzerland (and I have seen lots at virtualtourist.com). Breathtaking views :-) On that note, I'm not interested in clubbing while I'm in Switzerland. I'm just looking for a place that has all the factors, like cafes and places in which I can have some wine, in addition to the views and the charm. I will certainly research Murren and Lauterbrunnen - thanks so much.

&lt;I'm not interested in clubbing while I'm in Switzerland.&gt;

I guess I can understand that but one of the best gay bars I've visited anywhere was in Montreux Switzerland!

OMG, Suze, thanks for the advice ... I just looked it up online, and Montreux is beautiful. I'm so overwhelmed by ideas! :-)

Rocklit, I can't comment on your itinerary because I have only visited 2 of your cities, but if you want a day with a great tour guide in Paris, we used Michael Osman and he was so fabulous. He spent the entire day with us and he is so knowledgable of art and history. Our day with Michael was one of my favorites. His email is [email protected]. He charges 75 euros and this my friend is steal!

That sounds great, but that's beyond my daily budget. I'm living on student loans, so my daily cap is $50, including the hostels. I'm allowing room for splurges on drinking at clubs and the stay at Cinque Terre :-(

Well maybe next time! There are so many places to see in Paris that don't cost anything. Some of my favorites were St. Sulpice and Luxembourg Gardens. If you don't mind me asking, how much are the hostels? 50 US dollars will be more like 35-40 euros, that doesn't seem like that would go very far.

Hi Rocklit,

I would agree with the others regarding adding days to Paris and at least 1 to Venice. Yes, cut one from Cinque Terre.

My personal opinion on Nice - I would stay in one of the other towns, maybe St. Tropez or Cap d'Antibes (I know there is a hostel there). We were there in October and the weather was very nice and it was uncrowded.

Buon viaggio!

rocklit- just in case... there is a great hostel on the town square right on the lake in Vevey (next door to Montreux) called Riviera Lodge. Starting from 26 CHF. You can get between Vevey and Montreux by bus or train.

And the bar I mentioned is Il Baretto, which is part of/next door to Hotel-Restaurant de la Rouvenaz. This is in Montreux at the beginning of the cobblestone street that winds up hill into the Old Town. It is not a dance club but an intimate neighborhood bar with gay ownership &amp; gay or gay-friendly patrons. The atmosphere can go from quiet to extremely lively depending on who's there and the time of evening. They serve delicious food from the restaurant next door.

This forum rocks! I've done so much research on my own, but it's still not enough. You all have helped so much.

*ilovetulips*, you're right. I somehow forgot about converting as it applies to my budget. It aggravates me that the value of the dollar is where it's at. This is why I was active during the last presidential election :-), and that is all I'm saying! I guess I'm going to buget around $70/day, since the hostels may average from 25 - 35 euros.

Suze, I'll check that out. I'm considering going to Luzern and the Lauterbrunnen Valley in Switzerland, although Montreux is still my third. I'm changing my mind every day, so I just don't know :-)

Dayle, it's ironic that you mention to eliminate Nice. I have been pondering doing that lately. I've read about it, and the beach doesn't interest me, nor does the palm tree atmosphere. I live in Florida, and I've never been fond of it.

You mentioned Antibes. I looked it up, but it appears to be a beach city. How would you best describe it?

Excluding Paris, what city or town exemplifies the heart of France?

When you are in the UK, you are gonna want to stay overnight in Brighton, its known as the Gay capital of Europe for its large gay population and great nightlife. don't worry abuot days of the week too much. Also lots of great food and shops.
for other information on gay nights out, just buy timeout as soon as you get off the plane.
Personally I would skip york, theres not much there except the yorvik viking museum, the railway museum and a load of tea shops. Ditto windsor, big castle and a load of posh people, not much else. If you like mountains, get up to scotland for a few days instead, go to glasgow for the nightlife and music scene then head for the hills

Hi again Rocklit,

Re: Antibes, I didn't make it there myself, but was going on recommendations from one of my travel buddies who did.

I did make it to St. Tropez as a day trip and I quite liked it - in mid Oct. I would like to stay there in the future although I could see where it would be a bit crazy in the summer.

Can't comment on the club scene as I'm a high energy, daytime sightseer myself.

You're going to have a great trip!