rocklit

Hello all,

This is my first post to the discussion boards. I am visiting Western Europe for the first time ever in October. I've actually only flown here in the States twice before, so I'm a little nervous about this whole thing. I'm 25 and will be traveling alone.

I have done lots of research concerning which places to visit and how many days to stay in each place. I'm interested in exploring each city's culture, visiting museums and historical attractions, and going out to the gay bars/clubs on the weekends. I'm hoping some of you will be able to help with any constructive advice on my itinerary and whether or not the routes should be changed a bit. I've done my best to find train times, but that gets kind of complicated, as many of you may know:

Fly into London
London with day trips to Bath, Windsor, and York (8 nights)
Paris w/ day trip to Bruges (4 nights)
Nice (2 nights)
Cinque Terre (3 nights)
Rome (4 nights)
Florence (3 nights)
Venice (2 nights)
Kandersteg (3 nights)
Amsterdam w/ day trips to Haarlem, The Hague, Leiden, Delft (7 nights)

I've worked it out so that I'm in the Big 4 (London, Paris, Rome, & Amsterdam) on the weekends, so I can go clubbing while I'm there. Is there any part of my itinerary that should be changed, or is it fairly reasonable?

I was originally going to visit Gimmelwald instead of Kandersteg, due to favorable reviews at a different European travel forum; however, based on some searches I have done here at Fodor's, I realized Kandersteg is more my style. Gimmelwald seems a little too desolate for me. Any other Switzerland villages that are similar to Kandersteg that I should research?

Thanks much,

Toby

elaine

Hi
I'd take 2-3 nights from somewhere (Amsterdam?) and add them on to Paris, another one, perhaps, added on to Venice
Other than that, it sounds wonderful

mamc

I agree with Elaine. I would spend a couple of additional days in Paris and at least one more day in Venice. You could cut a day from Nice, Cinque Terre and Amsterdam. Other than that, you have a good itinerary. Have a wonderful time!

PalQ

Call and get the free European Planning & Rail Guide (800-441-9413) as it offers many different itinerary samples and a sketch on each country with rail map - lots of invaluable info. I'd go to Grindelwald over Kandersteg if it were my first trip to Europe - Kandersteg is fine if you're 50 or over - otherwise Grindelwald, to me the most beautiful location in Switzerland, at the foot of glacier-clad peaks, is popular with young travelers as well and has a wealth of hostels and dorms that are lacking in other areas of Switzerland. (Grindelwald is just above Interlaken). I'd say stay in Bruges in between Amsterdam and paris - too far to day trip and enjoy - at least three hours each way and the city is most magical at night when the bridges and canals are lit and the day tripping hoardes have gone. Obviously the eurail youthpass is a great deal for you. And you can also get a $45 London-Paris Eurostar chunnel fare if under 26. And the England BritRail youthpass will save you lots on train fares for your UK plans - a no-brainer.

swandav2000

Hi rocklit,

O well, I think you've got some huge leaps here. For example, Venice to Kandersteg is 8h42 with a change in Brig. That's not too bad as you can do it with a night train that leaves Venice at 23.05 and you can sleep through until the change at 06.15.

But the next one, Kandersteg to Amsterdam, is just a bear. The schedules show it's about 10h06 with two changes or around 9h06 with four changes. I couldn't find a night train w/o changes.

Maybe you can substitute Luzern (yes, it's a city, but it's beautiful, scenic, and charming), which is only an hour from Zurich. Then you may be able to find a cheap flight between Amsterdam & Zurich.

Or maybe drop Switzerland from this trip and add the days onto Paris. Spend some decent time in Switzerland on your next trip.

s

janis

You have done a really decent job for a first ever plan.

As the others say - you will want 1 or, better yet, 2 more days in Paris. And an additional day in venice would be good.

I am definitely not a Switzerland expert but swandav's comments look to be very useful re your transport problems for that bit of your itinerary.

choosing where to cut to gain the extra days for Paris and Venice is really your choice -- but I would take a day from CT and a day from Amsterdam.

artlover

It looks to me as if you've done a good job of planning, though I agree with the others about adding time to Paris and Venice. Also, you might consider going to Rome on another trip--it's a long haul for this trip.

Also, check out Rick Steves and Lets Go guidebooks--I believe they have information on gay travels in Europe. Have a great trip!

rocklit

Thanks so much for all your feedback. I did not expect that much advice so quickly. I have so much to think about

I was having the same reservations about not having enough days for Paris and Venice. Cutting from Amsterdam seems like a good option, since it's a small city. I think I may just extend the trip a little, even though it will kill my budget. I'm living on student loans and taking online courses while I visit Europe.

I just can't eliminate Switzerland. I want my first visit to Europe to include Switzerland - I find the people and culture especially fascinating.

PalQ, thanks for mentioning Grindelwald. I had referred to Gimmelwald, which is a very small community (150 people) that has two hostels and is apparently undiscovered (http://www.gimmelwald.ch/english/activities/hiking.htm). However, I'm beginning to wonder if it will be too isolated for my taste. What do y'all think after reading about it at the link?

I'll check out Luzern. What about Bern? I ordered free guides and brochures on MySwitzerland.com, so I'll be investigating further.

usbeauty

I too agree that you've done a great job with your itinerary. It would be a shame to cut from Amsterdam, not only because it's a great city, but it's got a great gay/club night life scene, as does Antwerp, which is close to Bruges. You may want to consider staying in Antwerp on the way to A'dam and make your day trip to Bruges from there. Have fun.

swandav2000

Hi Again rocklit,

There are some folks here at Fodors who absolutely love Gimmelwald, so do a text search here to read some more about it before you write it off. There are also Muerren and Wengen, both car-free mountain villages that are more accessable than Gimmelwald.

I did some checking for you on www.whichbudget.com (for budget airlines) and found that both Airberlin and Niki fly between Zurich & Amsterdam; the flight on Airberlin is about four hours and costs between 65E and 150E depending on when you book. The train trip from Kandersteg to the Zurich airport takes 2h27, and it is direct (0 changes); from Wengen or Muerren, the train ride will be about 3h30 with 3-5 changes. So figuring seven total travel hours, that's still quite a lot of travelling.

I'm glad you ordered brochures from the Swiss Tourist Office, but be warned: you're gonna wanna see everything they show you!! I think it's very, very hard to find only one place to visit there as it's ALL so good.

You can check rail schedules at www.rail.ch.

Best of luck as you figure out the Switzerland - Amsterdam portion!

s

swandav2000

rocklit,

I just had an idea. Why not go London-Amsterdam (5h56 with a change in Brusseles -- or look for a budget flight), then Amsterdam-Paris (4h09), then continue with your plan and end your journey by flying out of Zurich?

s

KikiLee

Rocklit,

I'm just guessing, but if New York is any comparison, I wouldn't be too concerned about making it to the largest cities (London especially - Amsterdam may be different because it is so small) on the weekends to hit the best parties. It is my experience that the best nights to go out in large cities are weekdays, not weekends. I think that this is especially true for gay nights at hot clubs, which tend to be on random Mondays or Tuesdays, not weekends.

Just wanted to make this point, to perhaps give you a little more flexibility in scheduling.

Enjoy your trip - I am jealous!

ira

Hi R,

I also suggest takin 2 nights from Amsterdam.

The CT is not at its best in Oct. Two nights is really enough.

You can now add 3 nights to Paris.

Check www.whichbudget.com for cheap flights between cities.

I also suggest London-Amsterdam-Paris.
You can visit Bruges on your way to Paris.

Paris-Nice-CT-Rome-Florence-Venice is fine.

Since Switzerland is a must, I suggest you fly home from there.

I don't think tht you need more time in Venice on this trip. It is best seen with someone you love.

Have a nice visit.

elaine

ira, I'm shocked! shocked! about your saying not to add a day onto Venice.


After all, it may very well be the place to MEET someone you love. And if not, the heck with that, it's still VENICE.

ira

Hi elaine,

Don't think that it was done without a great deal of soul searching.

janis

KikiLee has a very good point. I totally glossed over the "big cities on the weekends" bit.

In general, small towns/villages are livlier on weekends and big cities on weekdays. Much of the "party scene" in London for instance is after work and a lot of Londoners leave town on the weekend. Not that is it deserted - but drinks after work is much more common than "meet you Sat. night for drinks"

So don't avoid the cities at wekends - there is still lots do see/do and people around - but don't worry a bit if while fine tuning your itinerary some of the big cities move to mid week stays.

KikiLee

Not to mention that the truly fabulous (and for your first trip to Europe you clearly want to party with the truly fabulous) aren't bogged down with boring old 9-to-6 jobs, and prefer to party until the wee hours of Tues mornings, when they don't have to rub shoulders with us boring old slobs who actually have to go home early to make it to work the next day.

rocklit

You know, a few weeks ago, I thought I had found the most helpful forum on Europe at another website, but that was nothing compared to the wonderful feedback and advice I have received from all of you Thanks so much. I am so excited!

That's so true concerning the nights at the clubs. I should know this. Even in the small college town in which I live, the big night at the one gay club here is on a Thursday. Duh! Plus, the weekends in the big cities in Europe will be full of tourists, I'm sure, so it shouldn't be a factor for me.

Searching on www.studentuniverse.com, where I have found the cheapest international flight rates, I notice that Virgin Atlantic has available flights that are non-stop, but only flying to and from London - they are under $500, so that sounds good. I have an irrational fear of flying, so non-stop flights sound good to me

Swandav2000, thanks for your help w/ the rail schedules. RailEurope aggravates me. I'll check out the site you mention. I've read a lot about Gimmelwald, but I'm thinking it may be too quiet. I could always test it out, and then continue to another area if I don't like it. I'll have to do more research on the Swiss cities / villages.

Thanks, everyone.

Lexma90

Re Gimmelwald, what are you looking for in the tiny village? Beautiful views, laid-back folks, great hiking? Yes, it's remote, and yes, it's fabulously beautiful, but yes, it's also tiny, tiny. As I recall, when we went there (day trip), there were two hostels and no stores or restaurants (though that was in 1990).

Grindelwald, just down the valley, is much bigger. It's pretty touristy, but that's because it's a perfect base for sightseeing and day hiking in the area. If you have a car, you can easily drive to the cablecar to Gimmelwald for the day, and I bet there's public transportation to that point too.

I have also visited Kandersteg, but that was also back in 1990, and I don't remember a lot except that it was (also) beautiful. My notes say that it's a village in a wide valley; as I recall, the village was not very big. We only stayed there for one day (in between visiting Zermatt and Gsteig).

Personally, I'd chose Grindelwald or Zermatt (another fabulous place) over Kandersteg, but we do a lot of day-hiking, and that's what we did in all of those locations. Of course, in October, I don't know what your options would be on the hiking front anyway. You might want to check all of these locations and see how much is open in October. As I recall, in some mountain towns we've visited in late September, some places (restaurants, etc.) were closed (it being somewhat in between the summer season and the ski season). I don't know if this is applicable to wherever you decide to go in Switzerland, but you should check to see if that might be the case.

Have a wonderful time!

Robespierre

Holland LAST? That's a long backtrack from Italy!

How about taking the ferry (or fly) from England to Holland, then working your way south and flying home from Italy? Stena Line runs a high-speed (4 hrs) catamaran between Harwich and Hoek van Holland, with a Eurailpass discount.

Good train schedules can be found at

<b>http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en
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