Italy trip advice
 

Hi Guys -

First time on Fodors. Read these forums and lots of good advice. My wife and I are planning a trip to Italy in September. This is our first without 2 year old son in a while, so we are really looking forward to it. We are planning the trip from Sept 7th till Sept 20th. We have booked our tickets and flying out of JFK. Here is what we are thinking -

Sept 7th - Fly out of JFK into Milan
Sept 8th - Arrive early morning into Milan. Immediately take the train to Venice.
Sept 8th - 11th - Spend three nights in Milan. Stay at the Westin.
Sept 11 - Take the train to Florence
Sept 11th - 14th - Spend three nights in Tuscany.
* Day trips to Florence and nearby regions.
Sept 14th - Train from Florence to Rome
Sept 14th - 16h - Spend two nights in Rome. Stay at the Westin.
* I know this is not enough and won't do justice, but we are not big fans of crowded cities. Hoping to cover the "major" stuff in couple of days. Also, we arrive on Sunday. Would everything be closed?
Sept 16th - Train from Rome to Naples.
Sept 16th - 20th - Spend 4 nights in the Amalfi Coast Region.
* Not sure where to stay. Should we stay in Sorrento so we can day trip the area.
Sept 20th - Afternoon flight out of Rome back to JFK.

Few Questions -
For the Florence Tuscany leg -
1. Do you recommend staying in Florence for a night or two and then staying in Tuscany? The country side looks absolutely beautiful. And we normally don't like to hop around with our luggage, so would prefer to stay in one place. If we stay in Tuscany, can we just day trip to Florence/Pisa and other nearby areas in Tuscany? And lastly, which town in Tuscany should we stay in? Any recommendations on accommodations? We are willing to spend about upto $500 per night.

For the Rome part of the trip -
1. We arrive into Rome on Sunday. Will that be a wash? Again we are only looking to cover the major stuff in Rome.

For the Amalfi part -
1. Which town do you recommend? Should we stay in Sorrento, so we can explore all of the region? One of my friends recommended Positano. Any recommendations on where to stay? Similar budget as Tuscany (upto $500 per night).

This is our second trip to Europe. Any other advice you guys can provide would be very very very helpful :)

Thanks a lot in advance.

Hi Amit,

welcome to fodors! I can see that you've already picked up quite a few tricks - using your arrival day to travel to your first destination for example. BTW, do you mean to spend the first 3 nights in Venice, not Milan? that's what I'd understood.

another old fodor trick is to put your stay in your departure town/city last, so I would suggest putting Rome at the end of your trip. This leaves you with the most problematic part - Florence/tuscany. if you are not going to stay in Florence itself, you would need to find a place that you can get to on the train AND be able to visit Florence easily from there. The obvious place is Siena - it's not exactly small but there is a good bus [and train] service to Florence and it would give you easy access to the countryside, especially if you use a car and driver service like Luca at Hills and Roads [very well recommended here].

you could then get the train to Sorrento and use that as your base for touring - there are prettier places but they are more difficult to get to and have fewer opportunities for excursions. it will also make your return to Rome [via Pompeii perhaps?] pretty easy.

good luck!

Are your stays in Milan and Rome constrained by what you can get with points on Westin? For example, landing in Milan, just to go to Venice for not even a night(?) and staying Milan three nights is an unusual routing. You have listed places to visit, but the way you laid out the itinerary seems to indicate you might be looking for a very different kind of value propositions. What are you expecting to see in Venice in less than a day?
For return flight, starting from AC the same day is risky.

Hi Am,

No need to return to Rome, fly home from Naples.

Enjoy your visit.

((I))

Omg. Totally screwed up in my itinerary. I am staying 3 nights in Venice. Milan is just port of entry.

The only reason we have Amalfi towards the end, is because we usually like to end the trip with a beautiful somewhat relaxing part of the trip.

As far as Rome, we can spend three nights there, but we want the extra night in Amalfi. We usually like scenic areas more over cities.

Florence is all about art, and it is a city, so if you like art and the bustle of city life, you might want more than just a day trip.

Personally, I think if you`re going to go, I`d give it at least a couple of days! It`s such a neat city :)

Hi Ira - Unfortunately, not able to decent flights out of Naples to JFK, hence flying out of Rome. It was more frequent and economical. Also, not dealing with crazy halts.

Flight out of Rome is at 1:30pm, so hopefully I have enough time to lug back from Sorrento if I leave early enough.

Any other advice you guys can provide would be very very very helpful :)>

Well for trains in Italy go to www.trenitalia.com for schedules and discounted tickets which are sold in limited numbers and thus must be booked weeks early to secure them and then they are non-changeable non-refundable so set in stone.

Full fare fully flexible tickets can cost a lot more. But you are doing enough train travel to merit a look at the Italy Railpass which lets you chose which trains to take once there - you do need to make a seat reservation for 10 euros on all but regional trains but compared to full fare for your itinerary would probably be a good deal - if you want to be able to wait till you get to a city to decide what time you want to leave - otherwise do the discounted tickets and if the total of them even approaches the cost of a pass go for the pass.

First-class passes can be a good deal compared to first-class fares and there is IME of eonsof riding Italian trains a significant difference between first and second class - though 2nd class is nice enough first class in many ways is a lot more relaxed - seat are significantly larger - fewer seats in same-size train car means easier to stow luggage - often IME more empty seats to spread out on, etc. and also free beverges and a snack only in first class.

For lots of great info on Italian trains I always spotlight these superb IMO sources: www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.seat61.com - the latter has especially good info on discounted tickets - some available for 9 euros and there are also discounted first-class tickets that at times may cost not much more than discounted 2nd class tickets - so check each.

Save Rome for last.

I assume you mean 3 nights in Venice, not Milan

Will you have a car in Tuscany?
You decide rural or city, but do not do both. If city---Florence or Siena---then day trip from there.

You really have 12 nights in Italy. With a max of 4 destinations, you will be pushed. I would give 3 nights to each and put Rome last.

Don't be surprised if everywhere is crowded--I don't like crowds either, but in large cities, you can escape them by going into residential areas, etc. And unpopular opinion alert, but if you are not drawn to Rome, then I would not bother going for only 2 days. It can take so long to get your bearings in a city. I'd want a week there, but that is just me of course! But consider the luxury of time you would have in the other places.
If you plan on visiting Naples and Pompeii, then the consensus seems to be that Sorrento is a more convenient base, but it is not the scenic beauty that the AC towns are. If that is what you would rather have, there are ways you can see Naples and Pompeii in transit as you arrive and depart the AC. Just points to consider. enjoy!

>>>Flight out of Rome is at 1:30pm, so hopefully I have enough time to lug back from Sorrento if I leave early enough.<<<

I wouldn't do this. You need to stay your last nights in Rome (or departure city) as everyone has pointed out. There can be train strikes,etc. so you need to stay where you can access the airport.

I think you should look at reversing the entire trip. Fly into Naples and home from Venice. Even if you have to change planes to reach Naples, that is likely easier than arriving Milan, taking a train to Milan (1 hour) and changing to a train to Venice (2 1/2 hours). Venice can be a relaxing end or you could end in Tuscany and fly home from Pisa (non-stop Delta to JFK). Tuscany can be relaxing if you stay in the countryside. I don't think of the Amalfi coast as particularly relaxing as it will be crowded and hectic in September.

Fly to Naples, take airport shuttle bus Curreri from the airport to Sorrento. Spend several days on the coast, train to Rome (I would add days, but I love Rome), train to Venice or Florence (depending on where you decide to end).

All of the cities you want to visit will be rather crowded in September. We were in Florence today, and the crowds were incredible in the center. Of course, this was a three-day weekend, and at least some of the crowds were tour groups stopping in Florence en route to Rome for the canonization of the two popes. We saw several large tour buses from Poland. We went to see an art show which didn't attract huge crowds (Pontormo and Rosso Fiorentino), but if we had been planning to visit any of the big "must-sees" in Florence, I think a the pleasure would have been diminished greatly by the crowds.

If you're not a great fan of Renaissance art, and if you don't like crowded cities, I think a day trip to Florence would be plenty. If you just take a walk around the city, and visit a few of the churches that have incredible works of art inside, and maybe one of the historic palazzi, you'll probably enjoy the trip and avoid some of the worst crowds. Forget about "major stuff". You should see anything just because other people (or guidebooks) say you shouldn't miss it. Spend a little time with a good guidebook or two, and don't pay attention to the number of stars they give to each place. Choose some things that you thing YOU will enjoy. For interest, there's a very interesting natural history museum in Florence that includes some collections started centuries ago by the Medici family. Hardly anyone goes to it, but if you like that kind of thing, that could be your must-see.

There are lots of nice towns in the countryside, but you really should rent a car if you want to see them or stay in one. If you don't want to rent a car, Siena is probably your best base. From there you can take a day trip to Florence, and maybe another day trip to one of the towns south of Siena, like Montalcino, one of my favorites. You really should allow a full day to visit Siena itself, though, so I'd want to spend at least three nights there.

If you're only going to spend two nights in Rome, I especially suggest you skip all the "major stuff" there. It's really a shame to go to Rome and spend your entire time shuffling along in a crowd and missing all the magic of the city. I would be hard put to tell you what you should see without knowing your interests, but I would definitely say that you shouldn't go to the Vatican Museums, one of the most crowded places on the planet. The only place I've ever seen that was more crowded was the Great Wall of China, at Badaling.

Whether to stay in Sorrento or one of the Amalfi Coast towns would depend on what you want to visit in the area. If Pompeii is one of the places you want to see, Sorrento is definitely the best base. It's also the best starting point for a trip back to the airport on your last day.

There are a number of trains that will get you to Fiumicino from Naples in time for a 1:30 PM departure. Even if there is a train strike, there are always guaranteed trains, and Trenitalia bends over backwards to keep the high-speed Frecciarossa trains (which serve the route from Naples to Roma Termini) running during strikes. The airport train, the Leonardo Express is never affected by strikes.

For prudence, I would plan on arriving at the airport a good three hours before your flight, and I wouldn't take the last train that would get me there in time. I would really want to take the 7:30 train from Naples, which would get you to the airport by 9:22, but probably the 8 0'clock train, arriving half an hour later would be fine as well. The first train leaves Sorrento at 6 AM, and would get you to Naples by 7:07. This is the line where delays could really be a problem, so I would probably want to spend my last night in Naples, near the train station.

If you stay somewhere south of Sorrento, it might be easier and quicker to take a train from Salerno to Rome, but I don't really know much about the buses serving the Amalfi Coast going to Salerno.

I'll just add in - don't stay in Naples if your reason for doing so is to explore Amalfi Coast. It is a gritty, tough city and with a 2yr old, I wouldn't do it( we did just do it but we had no toddler and are hardened city dwellers). Stay in Sorrento, you'll be glad you did.

Palenq is always pushing rail passes and 1st class travel on trains, and I feel compelled to give an alternative opinion.

Starting with first class: first of all, on the high speed Frecciarossa trains, there is no more 1st and 2nd classes; they've been replaced with various levels of service, called standard, premium, business, business quiet, and business salon (which is a sort of conference room you can rent on the train). Standard is equivalent to what used to be called 2nd class, and premium is probably close to what used to be called 1st class. The difference between the two is minimum. The seats in premium are slightly bigger than in standard, but the standard seats are plenty roomy for me anyway, much more comfortable than airline economy seats.

Second, on the faster trains with reserved seats, there are some very steep reductions available, if you can get them before they're snapped up. These tickets are rather inflexible, although if you change your mind before the departure of the train, you can exchange them for full-price tickets, paying the difference. Just as an example, on the train between Rome and Naples, a full-price ticket in 2nd class costs 43 euros, but you can get that same ticket for 19 euros if you buy early enough. (If you're willing to travel at odd times of the day, you can sometimes find these prices even at the last minute, but don't count on it.) I myself would rather save over 50% than have a little extra leg room on a trip that's not very long.

Finally, it's very difficult to make a rail pass pay off in Italy. You basically have four trips. At the moment, Rail Europe is giving one day for free, so you can get four travel days with their cheapest 2nd class pass: $250, or about €181. You have to add to that the cost of mandatory reservations, which would be €10 for each train, so it would be either another €40 or €50, depending on whether you needed to change trains on your way to Sorrento. Let's say $221. The cost of the four trips the pass would cover would be €184.50 at full price, including reservations, so the rail pass would cost you more money even in you bought your tickets at the last minute and didn't get any discounts. If you bought them well in advance and got the best discounts available, the cost would be about €90.

I priced the same trip for first class, and full-price tickets for the four trips would be €248.50, while the first class rail pass would be $307 (€221) + €40 for reservations, or €261.

Palenq will probably say that the pass is more convenient, but it definitely isn't, because you need to buy those reservations, so you have to commit to a train anyway, and you can't get those reservations from a ticket machine, so you have to line up at the ticket window. In the cities you'll be visiting, the lines can be very long and slow, because tourists need a lot of explaining.

There may be some unusual cases where a rail pass would pay off for a traveler to Italy, but the cases are rare and involve very long trips; if you don't mind committing in advance to specific train, and buying tickets in advance, then I would say that it's impossible to save money with a rail pass here.

Your last day will be a nail-biter. Any glitch and the plane leaves Rome without you. Listen to the advice and either end in Rome rather than the Sorrento area, or follow the best advice: Start in Rome, then train to Sorrento, then head north, ending in Venice with last night in Milan.

Your first day with a jetlagged trip to Venice from Milan, leaving you to find your way to a hotel in Venice on foot or by boat is a sure way to exhaustion. Rome is a much better landing zone. After a few days in the city, you will be ready to roll.

Others have reported that first-class discounted tickets sometimes are nearly as cheap as 2nd-class - and yes there are varieties of first-class but check both classes if buying discounted tickets and if not much more go first class - the complimentary drink and snack may be more than the difference in price.

I have priced say Venice to Florence to Rome to Naples to Rome before and found out a pass was cheaper in both classes over full fare + supplements- I'll check again and report back - obviously if you are correct if makes little sense to buy a railpass. So I'll do my homework again.

And flexibility is still a part of a pass - you can wait until you get to Venice to make reservations for a train - not weeks in advance and it is always been easy to make those even by going to ticket windows - you could make them all at one station and then if you want to change train times just be out the cost of the reservation.

I do hear what you are saying about wanting to be someplace pretty and relaxing at the end, but the advice most everyone is giving you to put all your time in Rome at the end is spot on. Evenings in Rome are lovely for walking, many places beautifully lit, so it can actually be a very relaxing place to end your trip.

Standard thinking is that basics in Rome take 3 days - one for the Vatican, one for ancient Rome (Coloseum, Forum, Pantheon) and a third for all the rest of the 2500 year of Roman history (Borghese Gallery, one or two major churches - we love San Clemente - and all of the piazzas/fountains that make Rome Rome).

But - it's up to you.

For Amalfi coast it's easiest to tour a variety of places from Sorrento - and we have stayed at the Excelsior GRand Vittoria - which may be in your price range (it has been for us in May). It has free parking in gorgeous gardens surrounding a nice pool, even though the entrance to the property is in the main square of Sorrento. It;s sited on a cliff overlooking the Bay of Naples with public terraces and many rooms with terrace or balcony. Also a private elevator down to the dock where the ferries and hydrofoils for Capri and other towns down the coast dock.

You guys are awesome. This is all really good stuff.

Unfortunately, I have bought the air tickets already, as I was getting a good deal on flights using thankyou points (ended up paying $500 for tickets per person + not too many points) and times matched up. So I can't change that anymore :(. But I do agree with all you guys on ending the trip in Rome, so I don't have to go crazy over traveling last minute to the airport. So here is what it comes down to -
Sept 8th - 11th: Venice (3 nights)
Sept 11th - 14th: Sienna (3 nights)
Sept 14th - 18th: Sorrento (4 nights)
Sept 18th - 20th: Rome (2 nights)

For the Amalfi piece, what do you guys think about Positano/Ravello instead of Sorrento? Those places look too good.

For the Tuscany part, I do plan on having a car. But do I need one if I am staying in Sienna? Also, will it be good countryside staying in Sienna?

Palenq/bvlenci - Thank you so much for all the insight in using the trains!!

following on nyt's recommendation of the Grand hotel Excelsior in Sorrento, and having walked past it many a time a few weeks ago, out of curiosity I looked up the price of a room - and found that next month, by using booking.com, you could get a "classic double" for £150 rather than £350/night. ok it's non-refundable, but you'd only not go in case of illness or accident so that would be covered by trip insurance.

food for thought!

Ravello is perched high on a cliff with less transport than even Positano. If you don't plan to go to any towns on the coast and just stay put, it would be ok (unless you have a car?).

Two nights in Rome only gives you one sightseeing day.

For search purposes, Siena has one n.

I don't know that you would save any money with a rail pass since you would have to purchase seat reservations also (10€ - $14). Perhaps if you can use it on the train from the airport to Milan it might break even, but Trenitalia doesn't sell those tickets (at least not online) as those are sold by Trenord (12€). Not sure Trenord accepts the pass. If that leg isn't included, full fare walk-up price is a couple of bucks cheaper than a 4 day saver pass (currently $213 per person) + seat reservations (mandatory). If you are using a car for any portion such as Tuscany, you would likely pick it up in Florence and drop it in southern Tuscany (Chiusi? Orvieto?) and then your train cost would be even less.

You might also consider taking the Sena bus from Siena to Rome's Tiburtina station (20€). From there, catch the Italo train on to Naples. It takes the Sena bus the same amount of time to reach Rome and doesn't involve changes as the train does (either in Florence or Chiusi).

http://www.sena.it/Home/78-1-en.html

http://www.italotreno.it/en/Pages/default.aspx

If you're taking the bus from Siena to Rome Tiburtina, you could switch there to the Marozzi bus to Sorrento -- if it fits your schedule. From what I can read of the Marozzi schedule, this bus leaves at 3:00 PM. Probably you should get reservations: www.marozzi.it (all in Italian).

Santa Marharita Ligure (sp?) makes a sweet base from which to visit the Cinque Terre - I did that and spend a day hiking between all the villages but found SML a much more real town to stay the night.

SML attracts tourists who come to see nearby Portofino but is also a real active fishing town - watching the day's catch come is in the afternoon is a real sight.

Had to go away on a biz trip. Finally getting back to making all the arrangements again.

I need some help on few more things. Here is my final Itinerary -

Sept 7th - Fly out of JFK into Milan
Sept 8th - Getting into Milan at 8:30am.
Sept 8th - Take a train from Milan to Venice.
Sept 8th - 11th - Stay at the Westin Regina in Venice.
Sept 11th - Take train from Venice to Florence.
Sept 11th - 14th - Stay at the Villa Armena in Siena
Sept 14th - Take the train from Florence to Naples.
Sept 14th - 18th - Stay the Hotel Buca di Bacco in Positano
Sept 18th - Take train from Naples to Rome.
Sept 18th - 20th - Stay at the Westin in Rome
Sept 20th at 1:30pm - Fly out of Rome to JFK.

I mainly need help in getting around between cities.

1. Train from Milan. I plan on taking the train around 12pm. Will that be enough time (clear customs, get to the train station, etc.). Should I book 1st vs 2nd? Is there a big difference?

2. From Venice to Siena, is the best way to rent a car in Venice and drive to Siena OR take the train from Venice to Florence and rent a car in Florence to get to Siena? Are the train stations / car rental places nearby in Florence?

3. It looks the best option from Florence to Naples is on the Italo. Is that a fair statement? What is the best way to get to Positano from Naples?

This isn't working well as a layout. You can't be staying in Venice on the night of the 11th and departing to Siena the same day. You can't stay in Siena, travel to Naples and stay in Positano all on the 14th. I do not see how you can stay at the Westin in Rome on the 20th and also fly out on the 20th. I think you know your plan, but it is confusing and makes it look as if you have more time in places than you actually have.

Sept 8, arrive Milan, train to Venice, sleep in Venice
Sept 9 & 10, Venice (3 nts, 2 days)
Sept 11, train, bus/car from Venice to Siena via Florence, sleep in Siena
Sept 12 & 13, Siena (3 nts, 2 days)
Sept 14, travel from Siena to Positano via Naples, sleep in Positano
Sept 15, 16, 17, Positano (4 nts, 3 days)
Sept 18, travel from Positano to Rome via Naples, sleep in Rome
Sept 19, Rome (2 nts, 1 day)
Sept 20, depart Rome

My bad for the confusing post. Hopefully this is better?

Sept 8th - Travel from Milan to Venice via Train
Sept 8th - Check in to the Westin in Venice (3 nights)
Sept 11th - Check out of Venice and travel from Venice to Siena (Car/Train)
Sept 11th - Check in to Siena (3 nights)
Sept 14th - Check out of Siena and travel from Siena to Positano (Car/Train)
Sept 14th - Check in to Positano (4 nights)
Sept 18th - Check out of Positano and travel to Rome from Positano/Naples via train.
Sept 18th - Check in to Rome (2 nights)

Driving in central Florence is not advised because of the likelihood of stumbling into a ZTL, a locals-only driving zone. Which will likely result in a large fine some months later. You could pick up a car in Siena, but I prefer the idea of getting a rental car as you leave Venice. You'll probably want a car while you're staying in Siena anyway. You could stop along the way to Siena, maybe in Ravenna to see the mosaics.

Getting from Siena to the Amalfi coast, no need to go back to Florence. You could drop off the car and catch a train in Chiusi or Orvieto. Or even in Rome at the train station, but, again, driving in central Rome is not for the faint of heart.

In Naples Centrale train station, you can go downstairs and catch the commuter train, the Circumvesuviana, to Sorrento, then a bus to Positano. Or you can have a driver pick you up in Naples and drive you to Positano. Thirdly, you could take the train on to Salerno and take the bus or a boat back to Positano. Check the boat schedules carefully if you decide on that option.

Hiring a driver is much the easiest option but not cheap. Search the forum for recommended drivers and the cost of this option.

Do you intend to see anything of Florence? You could take a daytrip by bus or train from Siena into Florence, but that wouldn't leave much time for Siena and the beautiful area around.

>>>Sept 7th - Fly out of JFK into Milan
Sept 8th - Getting into Milan at 8:30am.<<<

You seem to be confused with arriving at the airport (not in Milan) with actually into Milan. Do you mean you will get into Malpensa at 8:30? It will take you about an hour to get from the airport into Milan (depends on whether you take the shuttle bus or the train). There is no class selection on the train - all one class - cattle. Are you planning to do something in Milan in the morning?

>>>Sept 11th - 14th - Stay at the Villa Armena in Siena<<<
>>>Sept 11th - Check in to Siena (3 nights)<<<

Villa Armena may be in the province of Siena, but it is not in or very near the town of Siena (it's closer to Buonconvento).

By staying so remote in Rome, you will not have the time to do the things you think you will. You are only giving yourself one sightseeing day and you are staying far out of central Rome. When you stay at remote places, you eat up a big chunk of your time trying to reach things. For such a short stay, I suggest you book something very central and walkable (Piazza Navona area or within a few blocks).

Good choice of hotel in Positano - excellent service and great location. If you are at all into cooking, they also offer a cooking class.

For getting to Positano, you can either (i) train to Naples and then prearrange for a driver to pick you up and drive you to Positano, or (ii) train to Salerno, then ferry from Salerno to Positano (but be sure the train arrives in Salerno in time to catch the last ferry, which currently is at 3:30). Arriving in Positano by sea is always fantastic - and a very short walk to BdB!

Bookmarking

Amit10 -
It looks like you have a nice amount of time to spend. One thing to consider, is that if you're not interested in Rome, you don't have to spend time there. Just stay there the last night to get to the airport. Have one lovely dinner, see the sites lit up at night and nothing else. Skip the museums and crowds. Go another time.

And in Tuscany if you've got a car, you can stay in one of the small hill towns such as Montepulciano and skip Florence and Siena. I would. That's much more relaxing and the countryside is such an important part of the best of Tuscany. Just wanted to throw that out there for you to consider.

Positano will be lovely!

Amit10, word on the street is that at the end of June Travelmar/Coop Sant Andrea will be adding an additional ferry from Salerno to Positano - departing Salerno at 5:10. So be sure to check the ferry schedule when booking train tickets.

Hey all, My husband and I are flying out of Charlotte to Rome on 10/5. We went thru a travel agent for parts of the 10 day trip. We have already booked our trains, we are landing in Rome at 9:45 am and are scheduled to catch the 11:12 from the airport to Rome, I'm getting nervous wondering if this is enough time. We are traveling light, just carry on luggage and already have our paid train vouchers. Any advice? Thanks. We are then traveling to Florence for 4 nights, Naples for 3 and then Rome for 4. Mary