Well yes my mistake because that was what bvience responded with to my suggestion that first-class was significantly difference - better to me - and I thought premium was first class because yes I had never heard of it as second-class + nor do I care about it - the word premium to me conjured up first class - I may not have read it well - so it was my assumtion based on response bv gave to my thought that there was significant difference between classes.

<Two wrong assumptions (kids free being specific to business or cheaper and premium being first class).>

As to this wrong assumption don't pout it on me - read carefully yourself - I never said nor would have I because I had or have no clue whether than is so or not. Blame me once for careless reading -maybe - I have yet to re-read bvience's response as to why I got the idea premium class was first class and I did not say the latter. Read carefully yourself before accusing others!

the only thing I KNOW I have right is there is a significant difference between first and second class - the one seat in a row - an aisle and a window see being the primary thing and how anyone can say that ain't hardluy didilly just don't know what they are talking about - yet you and bvience constantly trot out the idea that there is nearly no significant difference between first- and second-class on Italian trains - several Fodorites in the past few months would vigorously debate you - including the one who came from Venice to Florence in second class and said "never again" - treat your train travel like you would your hotel, restaurants, etc - the idea of penny pinching on trains when folks are spend $300-500 a day typical it seems on hotels and restaurants to me just defies reality - all helped along by statements from both of your repeatedly that their basically is no difference whereas the single row of seats is a SIGNIFICANT difference - I consider you belittling of the siginificant difference between classes to be serious disinformation and am perplexed how an expert like yous would do that!

Well if you consider sitting in one of those solo seats which can face each other for couples insinifigant differences then - wel lin any eyes that is a significant difference well worth to some at least paying a premium price and again it has been shown that discounted tickets in 1st class can at times be nearly as cheap as the least expensive available 2nd class ticket - but I never recall you pointing out that helpful fact - cheapest is not always the best and that is where we differ.

I will be strident more than ever in pointing out the difference in classes - basic 2nd class and basic first class - in all Italian rail threads.

Man in Seat 61 - the guru now of European train fares - suggests using Italiarail.com for booking at similar prices often to www.trenitalia.com but with much less the hassle - keep it in mind as an option!

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...servations.cfm

I never said that Premium was 1st class. I said that the Frecciarossa trains had four classes and I said immediately that there was no difference between standard and premium except for upholstery, something which you contested strenuously, Palenq. And now you're saying I led you astray? The truth is that your knowledge of Italian trains is scanty and mostly outdated, in spite of your guru pose.

I don't consider someone who rode in a 2nd class carriage once to be a better judge than I, who ride Italian trains regularly, and have had opportunity to ride in both 1st and 2nd class, and in standard class on a Frecciarossa.

And one thing I know I have right is that 1st class isn't different enough from 2nd class to be worth the 30% price difference. On the Frecciarossa trains, the difference between Standard and Business class is closer to 50%, and they have the nerve to charge 20% more for Premium class, with identical seats, a real rip-off. If there's a discount on 1st/business class that brings the price down to near the level of 2nd/standard class, it's worth it. I wouldn't pay a penny more for Premium, because I don't like leather seats (or maybe it's what they call "eco-leather, which is even more uncomfortable).

I'm not in general a penny-pincher, but I don't pay significantly more for something that adds minimal value. Where there is a choice between a Freccia train and an InterCity train, I always pay more for the Freccia train, which is significantly better than any InterCity train. I forego the extra savings for a super-economy fare if it means I have to buy the tickets four months in advance, because stuff happens and I don't like planning that far ahead. And, as I said before, 1st class in the UK is what I consider to be significantly different from 2nd class, and on a longer trip, I'd pay extra for 1st class there.

I claim no expertise in Italian trains but you do not have to be an expert to know that there is indeed a significant difference between first class and 2nd class - a thing in the past you have completely poo-poohed - you say I pose myself as a guru on Italian trains - never said that - you apparently feel you are and say so - I am not and never said I was - I stand by everything I've said and it's mainly that first class on the trip of a lifetime is IME well worth the extra money - especially for folks spending typically $300-500 a day for food and room - treat train travel like your other expenses - i never got the idea that on trains the cheapest is the best but in other things the best is the best.

I'm no expert but my take on the difference between classes - what my first-class Eurailpass gets me at least - is significant and believe me you need not be any expert to realize that - just be objective and not for some mysterious reason IMO being deceptive and misleading about that as many of your previous statements have said - that there is basically no real difference between the classes - to me there is - whether it was 20 years ago, 10, 5, 2 or in the future I'd wager too - there is a reason that at least 2-3 first-class cars are on fast trains and there is a reason that so many Italians pay more for them - Italians are not dumb and that is why there are so many first-class seats on typical trains - yes they are about half-full as you say and that in and of itself makes them significantly better IMO than an oft full second class car with 25% more actual seats all often full in the same-sized train car as is in first class.

cheers!