Italy itinerary help
 

OK, I think I'm brave enough to throw my itinerary out here for your comments/help. I still need help with one or two major things, so I was hoping I could obtain your advice. This is our first trip back in 9 years to celebrate our 20th anniversary, along with another couple who have never travelled to Europe before. I am very excited, but want to make sure I don't let the other couple down by missing some major thing I should have known better about.

Disclaimer: We like to travel at a quick pace, and I know this is not recommended by hardly anyone on this board, but it works for us, so our itinerary may seem too much.

We fly into London Gatwick, arriving Sat 9/9 at 8:05a. Will spend the day (as best we can from jetlag) seeing London (our first time), and then attend Phantom that night.
Sunday: We leave Heathrow at 7:10a, arriving Rome at 10:40a, then we'll take the train to Florence and check into Plaza Lucchesi, and then will walk around Florence a little and have dinner.
Monday: We have secured Luca of HillsandRoads for a day touring Tuscany.
Tuesday: tour Florence (hotel has secured our Uffizi and Accademia tickets)
Wednesday: We plan on taking an early morning train to Cinque Terre, and walking one or two trails, and having dinner there. We still need to find a place to sleep, as my over 15 requests have come back unavailable.
Thursday: We plan on taking an early morning train to Rome, hopefully arriving by 1:00 or so, allowing us time to see one major thing that afternoon. We are staying at Hotel Canada.
Friday: Rome
Saturday: EasyJet to Paris Orly 8:30a, arriving 10:30a. We then need to catch the train to Mont St. Michel, where we'll spend one night at La Mere Poulard.
Sunday: Tour MSM, get back on train for Paris, hoping to arrive early evening to enjoy dinner and a river cruise.
Monday: We have secured Michael Osman for the day.
Tuesday: Shopping day for us girls.
Wednesday: Open
Thursday: depart CDG 10:45a

This is our first time to London, Rome, Florence, Tuscany, CT, MSM.

My major questions are these:
Should we stay in La Spezia for our CT stay in order to be that much closer to the train for that morning's departure to Rome? Or if we're lucky enough to find a place in Vernazza (which is where I really want to stay), will we just catch the train in Vernazza to La Spezia? I was thinking that staying in La Spezia would save time for that Thursday morning departure to Rome.

Also, I can't quite get a hold of what's the best way to get to MSM? I had read on one post that there is a direct TGV to St. Malo, but I can't find it. And if so, is that the best way to go? Or should we go thru Rennes? I'm really at a loss here.

If anyone can help, I would very much appreciate it.

Kimberly

I'll take a small bite.

Well, yes, I'd call that a brisk pace, but to each his own.

Luca is a good choice for your tour of Tuscany. Ask him about Italian soccer. He's a h-u-u-u-u-u-ge fan.

You don't say how early the train is from CT to Rome, but with the frequency of trains out of the 5 towns, I'd say it's not absolutely necessary to stay in La Spezia, plus it seems like you'd miss a lot if you stayed there.

My one slight qualm with your schedule is the 1st day in CT. The train there, settling into a hotel, dinner and hiking "one or two trails" seems like a pretty packed day to me. I'd probably try to schedule another day in CT, but that's just me.

As for where to stay in CT, Vernazza is nice, but consider Monterosso, too. If nothing seems available, check the 5Terre Hotel in Monterosso. Clean, convenient, nice staff, good breakfast. Few if any North Americans stay there -- mostly Italian and German. Recommend dinner at Miky's in the New Town.
Enjoy.

Well, you already know what most folks here will say and have already decided they are wrong, so I'm not sure what else you want. If you're looking for validation for this insane itinerary, you've probably come to the wrong place. I'm really not trying to be rude, but 7 places in 3 countries in 12 days is not a trip, it's a marathon.

Is this an audition for The Amazing Race?

Trying to go to PHANTOM the first night, then waking up around 4:30 AM the following day to make a 7:10 AM flight out of Heathrow,(did you know that it's a 45 min drive from central London and that you have to be there at least two hours ahead??) seems like a prescription for travel hell. I don't know why you'd choose to travel this way, even if you do enjoy a fast pace.

I'd suggest sitting down and thinking about what you really can't bear to miss. Then add one or two places TOPS to that list, and go from there. Otherwise all you're doing is one of those horrible frenetic tours of Europe that don't let you enjoy much of anything at all.

Well - this is so far from the way we travel that I don;t even know where to begin to make comments.

Agree thaat going to the theater after a sleepless night and then making a 7am plane the following am is sheer madness.

On the CT day I'm not sure you will really have time to do anything on the day you get there ater checking into the hotel. (Do you get up at 5am every day and on the train at 7?)

And I love the day that says:

Friday: Rome

(this is 2.500 years of human history, most of the basis for western civilization, art, religion, politics etc) What exactly did you plan on seeing/doing in that one day?

Getting to and from Mt St Michel is not really easy/quick without a car. And have you looked to see when the tides are when you're there - you may see nothing but a lot of sand if you're not timed properly.

Also - the concept of Paris in one dy is interesting.

I get the feeling that you are looking primarily to check off items on a list. If that's what you want - fine. But to actually see much of anything, learn anything, get a feel for any of these different cultures - and god forbid sit down and relax in a cafe for an hour - you simply have no time at all.

You couldn;t PAY me enough to take this trip.

Sheer folly !
I am tired just reading this.
Skip London and fly direct to Florence.
Skip Mt. St. Michel--too far.
Are you really serious about this?

Hi Burley, I could not handle this itinerary and I have a pretty high energy level.

But you know you and your wifes ability better then we do. And hopefully you know your friends stamina too.

I am not sure that it is a case of letting done the other couple by missing some major thing..I think you will miss a lot of major things. I am sorry to say it could be (but possibly not?) you will all be so tired and jetlagged that perhaps (and again perhaps not) everyones nerves will be on edge and you will all come home with the feeling that this trip is nothing but a big blur.

But if you are all into this type of travelling style then I guess it will work out for all of you.

I do wish you congratulations on your 20th wedding anniversary along with good wishes for a beautiful trip.

Burley

You lost me at Phantom. This is about the craziest itinerary I've ever read. Have you considered adding up all your transportation time? That and sleeping leave time for nothing else.

I strongly suggest you revise.

Actually, the France end of the trip doesn't sound too nuts to me, but I think exhaustion may really hit during the Cinque Terre extension. Why not add that time to Rome? Or stay in Florence and enjoy a leisurely late lunch or sunset drinks in Fiesole? I like a quick pace often, too, but this will be a blur, I think, for the other couple...

Let us know what you decide!

Or-- one more thought -- skip Rome completely this trip, stay in and enjoy the CT and fly out of Florence (or Pisa?) to Paris if possible...

One other thing, have you travelled with this couple before? That complicates things even more. Have they really looked at the itinerary you are proposing? If you go through with this plan, I'm sure they'll never want to travel with you again!

Hi Burley...congratulations on your 20th anniversary. I think you saw it coming and I will not try not to add insult to injury...but...what could you be thinking with this itinerary.

I have been in the travel industry for almost 20 years...no longer a travel agent. When I was, if a client came to me with this plan, I would have talked them out of it. Trust me when I say that I have done some whirlwind tours but yours is not realistic and you will not enjoy your trip as it is now planned.

Travel is costly and it would be a grave mistake to not take some time in each location to truely enjoy what you are seeing...not simply go and see like they do on the amazing race.

It looks as though perhaps you are on frequent flyer points...flying into London for one day?...then going to Rome and getting on a train the same day to leave for Florence? Even if this is the case, there are better ways to make the best use of your time.

Revised:
Cut London if possible...Fly into Rome...stay there for x amount of days...Train to Florence for x amount of days...Train to CT...train to Pisa then easyjet to Paris. Forget MSM and stay in Paris and enjoy.

I hope it is not too late to revise your schedule and stop the insanity. I wish you well with your plans and your impending 20th Anniversary celebration.

I agree with the others. You have to remember that your friends have never been to Europe. You don't know how they are going to handle the jetlag, so to expect them to traipse all over London after a long flight and then be able to sit through Phantom in the evening is kind of ridiculous. And if you are going to be dragging them from city to city they will leave Europe exhausted...I would have hated for my first trip to Europe to be such a whirlwind. Europe is made for savoring, taking time to sit at a cafe and enjoy the atmosphere.

I travel at a fairly fast pace as well, but this is a little too much. You will lose so much time checking into/out of hotels and traveling to/from the various locations that you will won't really be seeing all that much of anything. I think you should take London off of the itinerary and skip either Rome or the CT and disperse the days accordingly.

I really don't mean to sound harsh; its just a shame to see such a rushed itinerary. I think you should sit down and think about how much time you will actually be at each place one you factor out the travel times and rethink some of your itinerary.

Happy anniverary!
Tracy

Yes, I figured I would get raked over the coals--not this badly, of course, but I did expect it to some extent. I am sorry, BobTheNavigator, that I wasted your time, as I have respected and enjoyed your postings and advice; thank you LoveItaly for your kindness, as you are another poster whom I've respected. Thank you J-999-9 for your informative advice, and to each poster who gave me their thoughts.

The first time we went to Europe, we drove 2480 miles in 8 days, then had 3 days in Paris. We saw Neuschwenstein, Salzburg, Venice, Monte Carlo, Aix and Le Baux, castles thru the Loire, Versailles, and finally Paris. We stayed in 7 different hotels--three nights being the most in one hotel. We loved and treasured this trip, and all the things we saw and experienced, and neither one of us would have changed a single day. We had many adventures that make up a wonderful trip. We were fortunate enough to travel with some-what seasoned travelers to Europe, so that greatly helped. Perhaps with doing this on our own, this is too crazy. We have discussed this with the other couple, and they understand the fast pace. I think the only wiggle room we have is to leave off CT, and I will discuss this advice with them.
I don't understand the negative comments about MSM, though. Many travellers do "day trips" from Paris to MSM. Why is this any different? I want to be able to see the Mont lit up at night, and then see it in the early morning hours before the hords of tourists come in, which is all the advice I gathered from this board.

Regarding Rome--yes, we know the significance of Rome's history, and yes it's a short time, but it's all we've got--perhaps we'll move the CT day to there, but in making our plans, each of us decided we'd like to see the CT, so it wasn't an "executive decision" on my part. I planned on seeing the Colosseum & Forum with Icon Tours from 4:00p-6:30p, and then the Vatican Tour the next day at 1:00, along with the Fountains Tour at 5:30. That was the plan.

We have three days in Paris, not one.

I truly was looking for specific help with my post.

Perhaps our kind of travelling does not fit in with this board--I suppose there is no room for sheer folly; I'll leave. But you know, there may be some people out there who, like us, only get to go to Europe once every 10 years, and want to be able to see as much as they can when they go, and so I thought that perhaps I had something to offer. I guess I don't.

Thank you again for your help along the way.

Thank you for your post, tcreath, as I've enjoyed your posts as well. I posted my response prior to seeing your post. I don't know if skipping London is out of the question at this point; $280 theater tickets are already purchased; but I can always check and find out. Just wanted to say thanks.

Burley, if you want to see the show, you probably should build in a little time into the day to take a small nap, as this should help you stay awake for the show. Make sure you set the alarm clocks... our "small nap" on our first trip to Europe ended up being five hours! We usually allow an hour or two on the first day we arrive, and this helps us stay awake later in the evening.

I understand your viewpoint on wanting to see a lot. We too travel fairly fast paced, probably moreso than many people on this board, although we have tried to slow it down some because we find that its more pleasant to have time to just enjoy our surroundings without having to rush from place to place. I think sometimes people forget to account for the time being spent getting from place to place. But you know how you like to travel, and hopefully the other couple is up for it.

Good luck!
Tracy

I'm sorry we chased you away but if you want honest advice...you came to the right place. There are a lot of well traveled people using this site.

Your MSM...might seem a tad unrealistic because you arrive in Paris on a plane at 10:30 in the morning and have to get to a central train station to catch the departure to Rennes. It is likely that you are looking at the 1:05 departure by the time you get your luggage and make your way to the station you need to depart from. You would arrive to Rennes by 3:15pm and hopefully there would be a bus that would take you to MCM at that time of day.

By the time you arrive MCM, you will likely have little time to enjoy the actual destination then you would leave the next day to head back to Paris...likely chewing up the better part of another day getting back.

I'm sorry you were offended by the blunt answers you're getting here but I think what you call fast paced is more like manic. I don't think you would find any travel board that would disagree.

I do wish you luck...and best wishes for your anniversary and hope that your vacation is all that you hope it to be. We are only trying to help you make the most of it with some sound advise.

But you came for good advice and you got it. Do not over react---you have gotten the same advice from the most experienced--take heed.

Please see this post about getting to MCM from Paris. According to this post the bus ride is another 1.5 hours from Rennes.

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34686824

Well, Burley, sticking in that disclaimer in the OP really worked wonders, huh?

I do think, Burley, that you got more helpful comments here than negatives!

I agree with you, as I mentioned earlier, that the France end of the trip sounds like a good amount of time. I only went to Mt St Michel for an afternoon and I will never forget the site of it rising out of the flat seascape!

But I still think leaving off either the Cinque Terre or Rome would ease things up a bit. I loved my one visit to the CT, and since it is not filled with "must see" sights, you could spend a brief amount of time there; it is just, as others mentioned, that it takes some time to get there, figure out which portion of the hikes to do, and if you need to spend part of that time looking for lodging, not much relaxing time is left.

Another thought is if you do stick with this itinerary, maybe don't over schedule Rome, in case sitting at a cafe for a few hours just eating, drinking and talking sounds better to all of you by then. (My favorite thing to do in Rome!)You could do your own night tour of the lit up monuments (Rick Steves has a good one outlined in his Italy guidebook) and take it at your own pace.

I've done my share of fast paced trips, too, (I've said more than once on a trip that "we can sleep when we get home") and you know yourselves and the other couple better than we do. Go with your gut on this one, and have fun.

I am a "Type A" Traveler....e.g. did the Louvre in the morning and Versaille in the afternoon. Usually people spend a day or two or three at each site. However, I must say you are over the top.

Remember, you CAN GO BACK!! You do not need to see the whole continent in one trip. I have been to France 4 times and every time I have wanted to see Mont St. Michel, but it just did not fit it. I know it is not going to wash into the ocean -- I will do it at some point in the future.

I have just come back from a whirl wind trip to Copenhagen and Sweden, and we spend so much time dragging our luggage onto/off of trains, busses, airports, checking-in, checking out, etc., and our itinerary was much more "calm" than yours! You are underestimating how much time transfers, etc will take.

Hello Kimberly, please don't leave Fodor's..I for one would love to hear about your 20th Wedding Anniversary trip after you return home.

You have been to Europe before and so you do understand about travelling there more then someone who has not been to Europe before.

A couple of hours sleep in London would help you enjoy seeing Phantom I believe..but yes do set an alarm clock.

Kimberly, I note your last day in Paris is unplanned. Could you take that day and add it to the CinqueTerra portion of your trip? That would give you all some time to catch your breath so to speak. Or take that day and add it to your time in London. Just a couple of thoughts.

I truly believe the various post were made with concern that all or some of you would just absolutely "collapse" during the trip and consequently not be able to see the places you are looking forward to visiting. It does happen..jetlag and being dreadfully overtired can make one feel so ill. Best regards!

Burley, from your other posts with different questions over the past several months, I see you originally planned (among other things) to spend several days in Tuscany and a week in Paris. I'd be curious to know what changed your original plan from a slower one to what you have put forth on this thread.

You can travel at any speed you like, but I would reconsider the order. Fly into London, Paris/MSM, Florence/CT/Tuscany, Rome and fly home would just seem more logical to me.

If you stick to the current itinerary, I think my only suggestions would relate to transportation and how to save time. Have you looked into connecting flights to eliminate a couple of train rides? I.e., fly London to Pisa rather than London to Rome and train back to Florence, and fly Rome to Paris to Dinan (or Caen). When you use a combination of plane and train to get somewhere, consider the time spent travelling between airport and train station.

Burley,
I know it's hard to take in negative feedback...but it might be helpful to you. Here's mine, skip CT, we just came back from the place, it was not worth it. In my opinion, it was over-hyped. Now Bellagio and Positano is a must see...but probably on another trip for you.

You mentioned that last time you drove over 2 thousand miles in 7 days and stayed in 7 different hotels...believe me, driving is totally different than your current trip, which involves lots of planes and trains. Don't forget that every time you fly or go by train, you'd need to catch a taxi to the airport or train station, wait for check-in, arrive at the destination and catch another taxi to your hotel. When you drive, it is easier in that you just transfer your luggage in the car then drive off and unload at the next hotel, no waiting at airports, not catching taxis etc...

Why don't you fly directly to Florence from London, then train to Rome then fly back to Paris via EasyJet or some other cheap airline or take the night train? That way you'll cut down on traveling time and have more time at each place.

I would say skip CT and MSM.

Hope that helps. Honestly, we are here because we love traveling and love to help other people also.

I am not sure if you have everything booked...but perhaps fly into Rome from London and work your way up the coast? We flew into Rome, and our last stay was CT (we stayed in Santa Margarita--and took the train back into CT for a day of hiking). We took the train up to Genoa bus station, then to the airport. From our hotel to the airport it was about an hour and a half tops.

Thanks again for the replies, and I really don't want to leave the forum, as I do enjoy reading all the information that's available from everyone. Yes, it did hurt to receive the negative comments; but, after a few days I recognized them for what they were and sifted through the ones that were truly helpful. My husband and I have made some adjustments, based on your comments, and think we have a much better itinerary now.
We could not change our flight into London, nor the London-Rome flight, so we're stuck with those. But, we are going to set aside some nap time, seeing perhaps one or two things in London, but the main focus being able to withstand Phantom.

We then took out the CT day, and tacked that onto either Florence or Rome (our Florence hotel was not available for another night, but our Rome hotel was), so we can either spend the day in Florence or head on early to Rome.
The MSM is getting worked out pretty well, as my hero Bob at BETS has helped me with the train schedules and finally found one that will put us back in Paris on Sunday around 4:15p, which gives us the evening to enjoy Paris. (We'll be going Paris to Pontorson on Saturday, and then Dol to Rennes to Paris on Sunday, leaving the Mont around noon for a 1:04p train from Dol.)
From there, Paris is a snap, as we'll have Michael Osman for our first full day, a shopping day, and then a day where each couple will do whatever we choose at our leisure (my hubby and I are thinking about Vaux Le Vicomte). Anyway, that's the revised plan; we'll just save CT for another trip. Now, we're in two hotels for one night each, and three hotels for at least three nights each.
I may still need help, and I hope that there will still be help to be found.
Thanks again for all your help so far--it is appreciated. (And, I will post a trip report, truthfully telling how it went, upon our return.)