Fodor's Travel Talk Forums

Fodor's Travel Talk Forums (https://www.fodors.com/community/)
-   Europe (https://www.fodors.com/community/europe/)
-   -   Italy is in total lockdown now (https://www.fodors.com/community/europe/italy-is-in-total-lockdown-now-1678576/)

Sue_xx_yy Mar 14th, 2020 02:07 PM


Originally Posted by Leely2 (Post 17078130)
On the bright (?) side, it is nice seeing Italians singing together separately on their balconies in cities across the country:

https://twitter.com/leonardocarella/...11612270690305

oops my bad Leely2, I didn't see your post before I also posted this video. I was just so happy to see something positive, got carried away in a moment of exuberance.

Bokhara2 Mar 14th, 2020 03:16 PM

All the best to our Italian friends from Australia.

Nikki Mar 14th, 2020 06:43 PM

Thanks to all of you who are sharing your experiences. There is an unbelievable quality to the news, and this makes it concrete.

scrb11 Mar 18th, 2020 09:44 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_cI...ature=youtu.be


Message from Italians.

AJPeabody Mar 18th, 2020 10:18 AM

They should play this to every American.

Macross Mar 18th, 2020 02:04 PM


Originally Posted by AJPeabody (Post 17080499)
They should play this to every American.

I saw the news where they went into the ICU (Italy) and now I am terrified. They were laying naked on beds on their stomachs attached to a ventilator. No one has come out of it. It isn't working. I can't take anything to make me calm, a 1/4 of a Zantac or Ativan. Are they in a sort of induced coma? Our friend was put into a coma so they must have done that to these people. I know he could hear us and he smiled when I had a cup of coffee next to him. He loved coffee. He died five min after taking it out so how do you decide that you don't want this? Checking my living will tonight.

bvlenci Mar 20th, 2020 06:37 AM


Originally Posted by Macross (Post 17080613)
I saw the news where they went into the ICU (Italy) and now I am terrified. They were laying naked on beds on their stomachs attached to a ventilator. No one has come out of it. It isn't working. I can't take anything to make me calm, a 1/4 of a Zantac or Ativan. Are they in a sort of induced coma? Our friend was put into a coma so they must have done that to these people. I know he could hear us and he smiled when I had a cup of coffee next to him. He loved coffee. He died five min after taking it out so how do you decide that you don't want this? Checking my living will tonight.

The use of a ventilator isn't futile; it does work. Of course, by the time a ventilator is resorted to, the person has reached a very critical stage of the illness.
The first known case in Italy was a young man, who was successfully intubated.

I know that some of the people who die are conscious to the end, but some may be heavily sedated.

annhig Mar 20th, 2020 06:57 AM

Thank you for that response, bvl.

I hope that you and your family are all well and managing to cope with our new reality.

scrb11 Mar 20th, 2020 08:06 AM

Heartbreaking story about ground zero in Italy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/dj3...ar-of-the-mask


neckervd Mar 20th, 2020 08:44 AM

Benvenuti a Bergamo

That was 4 days ago. In the meantime the situation got much worse.

zebec Mar 20th, 2020 08:50 AM

SCRB11, thx for link. As for the article, compare 'still working at age 86' with 'carelessly cavorting on a Miami beach as late as March 18th' (shakes head).
I am done. The end.

neckervd Mar 20th, 2020 09:58 AM

Coronavirus in Italy today:
about
3000 people in terapia intensiva
16000 in other hospital beds
19000 in isolation at home
5000 healed
4000 dead

nochblad Mar 20th, 2020 12:25 PM

This is very personal but indicative of what we are facing.

My wife fell last Friday and thought she may have broken her ankle. She needed an x-ray but we did not want to go to the main hospital in Como as it is full of corona virus patients. The risk now is that even if you go to a department where there are no corona virus patients doctors/nurses/orderlies etc mingle at the bar etc so someone may return to where you are infected. On Monday we agreed with her doctor to go to a private diagnostic center but then discovered it had stopped doing x-rays during this period. We eventually found another private diagnostic center which discovered she had in fact broken her ankle and needed an operation. The problem then was to find somewhere safe to be operated. Fortunately we found a small hospital near to Como which had no corona virus patients and she was operated on the day before yesterday. Normally she would have had spent the night there but due to the circumstances they agreed that she could return home that day. Whilst recovering from the operation the hospital received notice from the Region of Lombardy that it would have to accept corona virus patients and that anyone who had not left the hospital by 17.30 would be isolated there. Before leaving she desperately needed to have a pee but with all the stress she just could not relieve herself. The minutes were counting down and finally she did with only minutes to spare. A Hollywood ending so to speak.

This is an example of what we are facing.

zebec Mar 20th, 2020 12:55 PM

Grazie for sharing this Nochblad and was good to read that your wife made it our, albeit right down to the wire. Hoping for a speedy recovery at home. Your story illustrates just how many additional, health cases have become so complicated and even dangerous, during these days. Buono fortuna.
I am done. The end.

annhig Mar 20th, 2020 01:12 PM

Yes, thanks so much for sharing your wife's story with us, Nochblad. I am so glad that she made it out in time and wish her a speedy recovery.

It perfectly illustrates the impact of the virus on quite minor household events [not that breaking one's ankle is minor as I remember from breaking mine about 20 years ago] - no trips down to A&E for that cut that might need stitches or bad burn or even something more serious. We are going to have to become far more self-sufficient.

Jean Mar 20th, 2020 01:15 PM

Oh dear, nochblad. So sorry you and your wife were faced with this drama but relieved to hear that your timing was good.

Wishes for a speedy recovery with absolutely NO complications.

gomiki Mar 20th, 2020 04:54 PM

nochblad, that was quite the close call! Talk about stress level. I wish her a good recovery and good health to both of you.

progol Mar 21st, 2020 05:54 AM

Oh, nochblad, what a terrifying experience for you and your wife! I'm happy to know that it worked out, but sheesh, how stressful.

Thank you all for sharing these stories, news, and information. We are living in strange and sad times. All of us are now dealing with it, but those of you in Italy have been hit earlier and harder. My heart goes out to you -- and to the rest of us, too.

bilboburgler Mar 21st, 2020 06:10 AM

Thank you for the info, giving us all a view of our future.

scrb11 Mar 21st, 2020 07:12 AM

Chinese public health official says Italians not doing enough with social distancing.

Public transportation is still running and people are still having hotel gatherings and such.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...ina-second-day


nochblad Mar 21st, 2020 07:40 AM

From my own personal experience I would disagree at least as far as Como is concerned.

Initially the Government suggested a 1 metre separation but pharmacies and supermarket queues seemed to be working on a 2 metre separation but this seems to be increasing to 3 metres by individuals in general.

It is true that public transport is still running but only individuals with a viable motive are traveling on it. Anyone without a valid motive which has to be expressed on a particular form which has been issued by the Government (with sanctions and fines for anyone making a false declaration) faces severe implications.

Further restrictions are expected to be imposed imminently. For example, if you need to go to a pharmacy or a supermarket this will only be that which is close to where you live rather than maybe further away.

Hotel gatherings? Many hotels on Lake Como have delayed their seasonal opening and there is considerable uncertainty as to when the opening will occur - it looks like the end of April or even May at this point. This is not necessarily the case as many hotels are dependent upon foreign guests and even if the health situation in Italy returns to a stable situation flights from countries such as the UK, US etc which are behind the development of the pandemic will not recommence until those countries are perceived safe.


Jean Mar 21st, 2020 07:58 AM


Originally Posted by scrb11 (Post 17082212)
Chinese public health official says Italians not doing enough with social distancing.

Public transportation is still running and people are still having hotel gatherings and such.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/soci...ina-second-day

I'm not sure China should be pointing fingers at other countries. Perhaps their own guidelines aren't working as well as they say they are, and at this point we need honest, accurate reporting. (Take note, Mr. Trump.) From the link above:

"While the lack of new domestic cases appears promising, some health experts have questioned the accuracy and value of China’s numbers.

"People with only mild symptoms do not count as confirmed cases under Beijing’s rules, but they can still spread the virus, the experts said. Critics have also argued that China is playing the figures to make itself out to be a global leader in the fight against Covid-19."

neckervd Mar 22nd, 2020 07:59 AM

The actually best known alpine valley
https://www.valseriana.eu/eng/

Jean Mar 22nd, 2020 12:07 PM

One of several theories as to why northern Italy has so many cases is that there are thousands of Chinese laborers working in factories near Milan and that many may have traveled to China for the lunar new year in late January.

scrb11 Mar 22nd, 2020 12:44 PM

No I heard the first infected person became infected by someone from Germany, who may have traveled to China.

Jean Mar 22nd, 2020 03:00 PM

How can they possibly know who the first infected person was or if it was even just one person infected by one person.... Some people get infected and never show symptoms. In some, symptoms appear early while in others days later.

scrb11 Mar 22nd, 2020 03:21 PM


Originally Posted by Jean (Post 17082864)
How can they possibly know who the first infected person was or if it was even just one person infected by one person.... Some people get infected and never show symptoms. In some, symptoms appear early while in others days later.


Some countries have done contact tracing, that is ask the infected person about where they've been, whom they've come in contact with.

But the other way is that they can analyze the virus in their system and trace it because the virus has unique characteristics indicating how many people were infected through a given strain.

When the Seattle-area rest home had all those deaths, someone reported that experts believe it had been spreading in Western Washington for 6 weeks, based on analyzing the virus in the victims.

Here is some more specific information about theories on patient zero in Italy:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKBN20Y35B


Traveler_Nick Mar 22nd, 2020 09:18 PM

The virus over time mutates. The mutations are for the most part fairly small but they can use it to track things. It seems most of the people infected in northern Italy have the exact same strain as the German one.

https://nextstrain.org/#ncov

Not saying it's the simplest website but if you look at the map here

https://nextstrain.org/ncov/2020-03-20

moving the date range back to early February you can watch the spread

scroll down to the map

nochblad Mar 23rd, 2020 05:09 AM

Jean - One of several theories as to why northern Italy has so many cases is that there are thousands of Chinese laborers working in factories near Milan and that many may have traveled to China for the lunar new year in late January.

Thousands of Chinese - this is not the reality around Milan. There may be thousands of Chinese but they are mostly involved in bars, restaurants, hairdressers, fashion shops etc. All activities which are basically closed now.

There is a much bigger Chinese involvement in industry in Tuscany especially in the area around Prato, Campi Bisenzio etc where they are involved in the tanning industry, pronto moda (fast fashion) etc. But they generally keep to themselves. Tuscany is not yet a hot spot compared to Lombardy.

mms Mar 23rd, 2020 05:38 AM

scrb11--Yes, the virus was here in the Seattle area long before the cases at the nursing home. The first case was in Snohomish County, just north of Seattle, and that patient made the news on January 21. My husbands coworker caught it here before we all left for Germany, not knowing. We are almost positive my husband had it, but somewhat mild. His coworker has it and still has not made it home from the east coast. Upon returning to the states, he stopped back east to visit family and immediately ended up in ICU for this on January 31. My husband could not get tested, even though we tried. With the timeframe, we know it was caught here at home and long before much of it made the national news.

neckervd Mar 27th, 2020 02:55 AM

Nobody knows whether the virus was brought to industrialized lower Val Seriana by Chinese people living in China and coming regularly to Italy for business or for family resasons, by Chinese people living in Italy who got visits from their homeland, by Italians living in China or by Italians who went to China for regular business meetings or for tourism.
There are (or were) tight business relations between Lombardy and China (Wuhan included).

Newest statistics: http://opendatadpc.maps.arcgis.com/a...c82fe38d4138b1

MarcTraveler Mar 27th, 2020 05:10 AM

Wow ! This is insane to see what is going on in Italy as we don't have many news on the situation here.

Cowboy1968 Mar 27th, 2020 09:44 AM


Originally Posted by MarcTraveler (Post 17085282)
Wow ! This is insane to see what is going on in Italy as we don't have many news on the situation here.

It doesn’t get any better when you get lots of news. One of my friends lives in Sicily with his 80+ year old parents. Fortunately, the old folks live a bit remote in their own house. So they may survive. The emotional stress on relatives of elderly and people with existing conditions must be unbelievable.

scrb11 Mar 30th, 2020 09:27 AM

Harvard Business Review publishes an article about mistakes which were made in Italy.

Among them politicians were slow to act and tried to limit it to small red zones instead of proactively locking down the whole country. They said when lockdowns for Lombardy and Veneto were announced, there was an exodus to the South, which is not what you want.


Some Chinese officials said quarantining at home of those suspected of being infected (because they're not being tested unless they have some advanced symptoms) probably led to whole families becoming infected, including nonno and nonna. In Wuhan, they started moving those infected to separate facilities, away from home.


nochblad Mar 30th, 2020 10:30 AM

scrb11 - you are not an expert and are not on the ground in Italy so better not to regurgitate what you have read from various sources especially dubious ones (Chinese?).

Today was my younger daughter's 30th birthday. I could not enjoy it with her. Only un'abbracchio virtuale. This is the reality we are facing here in Italy.

scrb11 Mar 30th, 2020 10:38 AM


Originally Posted by nochblad (Post 17086846)
scrb11 - you are not an expert and are not on the ground in Italy so better not to regurgitate what you have read from various sources especially dubious ones (Chinese?).

Today was my younger daughter's 30th birthday. I could not enjoy it with her. Only un'abbracchio virtuale. This is the reality we are facing here in Italy.


I never claimed I was an expert.

I'm just relating reporting.

This is the "dubious" Chinese source as you put it:


Italy needs to shift to mass quarantining of coronavirus patients with mild symptoms instead of letting them isolate at home, according to a group of Chinese experts who traveled to the European nation to advise officials there.

Doctors in Wuhan made the same error early on in the outbreak, said Liang Zong’An, head of the respiratory department at the West China Hospital at Sichuan University. While seriously ill patients were admitted to hospitals, doctors at the time recommended that those with mild symptoms isolate themselves at home, in part to reduce the strain on Wuhan’s overburdened health care system.

Back then, it was not well understood how infectious the virus can be even in those who don’t seem very sick. But researchers now know that those with mild symptoms who are told to stay at home usually risked passing the virus to family members, as well as to others outside their homes as some still moved around freely.

“Due to lockdown, most of the transmission that’s actually happening in many countries now is happening in the household at family level,” Mike Ryan, head of health emergencies at the World Health Organization, said in a briefing on Monday. “Now we need to go and look in families and find those people that may be sick and remove them and isolate them in a safe and dignified manner.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...na-doctors-say

Here's the other article generally about Italy's response to the pandemic.

https://www.vox.com/covid-19-coronav...en-will-it-end



janisj Mar 30th, 2020 10:43 AM


Originally Posted by MarcTraveler (Post 17085282)
Wow ! This is insane to see what is going on in Italy as we don't have many news on the situation here.


I find that very hard to believe. There has been a lot of coverage. If you live in the States - sure there is more coverage of the situation at home, but there has been a lot of coverage about Italy, Spain, the UK, Iran, etc. in newspapers, and on just about every news outlet site.

StCirq Mar 30th, 2020 11:45 AM

Where in the world is there not 24/7 coverage on the news about this?

mms Mar 30th, 2020 12:33 PM

StCirq--There are isolated areas. We have family that lives in the bush for instance, and there is no news coverage whatsoever.

jmv50 Mar 30th, 2020 01:21 PM

Villa rentals
 
Does anyone know if villas may still be legally rented to vacationers in Italy? As elderly Amercians we want to cancel our trip. We have rented a place and they are refusing to refund. I was hoping we would have more grounds to appeal their decision if we knew of specific laws.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:36 AM.