Italian train system
 

Trip to Italy this spring all arranged smoothly, except for . . . TRAIN travel. I've researched on several travel sites and have read uncountable user reviews and comments. At least I know it's not JUST ME. The forums are filled with people pulling their hair out. Could it be any more complicated?? For example, this official decree: "All passes must be purchased before you leave for Europe" led me to three full days on line trying to purchase a Eurail Italy Pass Saver pass---Can't be done as they don't accept my "foreign" credit card. Huh? Guess I can't get the 30% discount for a 15-day pre-purchase either since I can't buy the pass 15 days before I get there. Huh?

State your travel itineray. It's likely a pass is more expensive than point-to-point tickets purchased in Italy. You can also purchase in advance and get discount tickets (as much as 60% discount) on the Italian train website Trenitalia.

A pass is a waste of money in Italy. All trains, except Regionals, require reservations seat fees in addition to the pass.

I'm a fan of Kentucky bourbon myself. I'll try the Trenitalia site AGAIN. I must be doing something VERY wrong. How can I purchase in advance if it won't accept my Visa or Mastercard? My itinerary is set: Arriving in Rome (is it really $83 to get from airport to train station in city!?) then going to stay in Florence for two weeks, with the weekend up to Venice, before returning to Rome to fly back to Detroit. I have been trying to compare the cost of buying each of the four tickets separately with using the "Eurail Italy Pass Saver" for 4 days travel---cost of pass is $230. That's WAY MORE than I expected.

Without any possible discounts or seat reservation fees (which you would still pay with a pass), the fares look like this for tomorrow:

Rome airport to Rome Termini - 14 euros, all one class
Rome Termini to Florence SMN - 63 euros 1st, 45 euros 2nd*
Florence SMN to Venice SL - 60 euros 1st, 43 euros 2nd
Venice SL to Rome airport - 118 euros 1st, 90 euros 2nd

* There is a cheaper but much slower option with fares of 26,30 euros 1st, 17,15 euros 2nd.

FWIW, I would only buy 1st class for the longer Venice-Rome leg.

For point to point tickets, have you told your credit card companies that you’ll be making purchases in Italy?

If you really must get this done before setting off, try this site - which may be easier to use...

http://www.italiarail.com/

Unsurprisingly, haven't bought from them myself but generally good reports on Tripadvisor - at least until the time Trenitalia made it easier to use foreign cards on their site... after which the stream of posts about problems with that has more or less dried up!

Once the introduction of email tickets removed the need for an expensively-insured delivery of paper ones, the cost difference shrank - but you should still check, obviously, that their price, markup and exchange rates make it worthwhile?

As long as you're OK with the applicable terms and conditions, look here for the tickets they sell under the Mini scheme and others:
http://www.italiarail.com/rail-promotions

And if not especially familiar with rail travel here, it may pay to read this...
http://www.seat61.com/Italy-trains.htm

Peter

PS - Those going later in the year shouldn't bother trying to book beyond May 6th, as tickets for almost all trains after then aren't available at present!

Thank you all for your kind instructions. So much for university degrees, huh? I've never felt so stupid in my 60+ years. Just finished another four hours on Trenitalia site. Whew. I was finally able to get most of my routes & schelules to show up. Yes, Jean---I see a choice for the Rome to Florence leg--- an ES for 45euro or an IC for 30euro. So the question is, Do I want to spend $20 to cut my travel time in half? Probably. I'll stop sweating it and give up trying to stay within the budget. After all---I'm going to live & study language & art in Florence this spring!!

BEWARE BEWARE: With one exception, those Intercity (IC) trains between Rome and Florence go into Firenze RIFREDI Station and not the main Santa Maria Novella (SMN) Station. From RIFREDI you must connect to an unreserved regionale train for the remaining 5-minute hop into SMN.

If you want to save money by avoiding the pricey Freccia trains, take an unreserved regionale between Rome and Florence-SMN for only 17.15 Euros (BUT NOTE that travel time is four hours versus 95 minutes on the Freccia train!).

Otherwise, book in advance and get a discounted "MINI" fare on the Freccia train (BUT NOTE the severe restrictions of the "MINI" fares).

Annettafly, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that feels so stupid when it comes to train travel. We are going to Europe the end of August til the end of October and are doing it my train! We have all our reservations and rentals in order and the train is the last thing! And in my opinion the hardest to do! I'm going to keep checking on your post to see if I can get some information for our future trip being we can't buy until later. Good luck with your trip and have fun!

I would not use Italiarail as they mark up the prices.

Unless you plan to book Mini Fares, I wouldn't book any of this in advance. The train from the airport to Rome doesn't have discounted tickets so it will be 14€. If you want to save money, take the shuttle bus instead (8€ and runs hourly).
http://www.sitbusshuttle.com/fares/

I also wouldn't book the train to Florence if it's on arrival day as you have no way of knowing if your plane will be late.

If you want to save money by getting a Mini Fare for the Florence/Venice and Venice/Rome trains, then book them once you get to Florence.

As for a pass,you can't get a saver pass unless there is someone traveling with you. It's for 2 or more traveling together at all times. It also wouldn't cover the airport train unless you bought a 1st class pass. Fees for the fast trains with a pass will 10€ each train(about $13 right now).

OK You've convinced me that the saver pass is useless cuz we'll still have to pay supplements to take the fast trains. But I am traveling with somebody so we meet the requirement for the saver pass. I know it's NOT NECESSARY to buy tickets in advance, but I sure would like to look at prices/schedules so I can make other plans that are time sensitive. Spent two hours today on Trenitalia site. Still get no results. I put in my departure and arrival cities---Rome to Florence, Florence to Venice, Venice to Florence, Florence to Rome---and the response tells me these are nonexistant or invalid stations.???????????????? I did find my way to info about the MINIS---LOOKS WAY CHEAPER. Given that I've been at this for two months, and have two months left to continue the battle, I hold on to hope for victory.

These are popular routes.You should have no trouble finding trains for these routes. Did you use this site? Did you use European dates (Day-Month-Year)

http://www.fsitaliane.it/homepage_en.html

Try looking at schedules for next week, using the same day of the week you hope to travel. Try using the Italian names for the stations.

Roma TE (Termini)
Firenze SMN (Santa Maria Novella)
Venezia SL (Santa Lucia)

Trains in Italy are so easy to use. (unless they are on strike)I personally would never book anything more than 1 or 2 days in advance. easy to use ticket machines in station. Need to know how the ticket system works though- Go to slowtrav.com- good section on train travel in italy.

Alright! That makes sense. Duh.

>>>Spent two hours today on Trenitalia site. Still get no results. I put in my departure and arrival cities---Rome to Florence, Florence to Venice, Venice to Florence, Florence to Rome---and the response tells me these are nonexistant or invalid stations.????????????????<<<

No clue as to what your search problem could be unless you are using the LeFrecce link on Trenitalia. Trenitalia is not the difficult to use. It should only take a minute or two to find your trains. If you are using the LeFrecce link, you must enter the Italian spellings of each city.

Here are step by step instructions with screen pictures of how to register, find tickets and purchase.
http://www.roninrome.com/%20transpor...italia-website

Annettafly,
Sounds like we are of the same vintage (age).I like independent travel, but like to reserve my major train tickets ahead of time, I always use http://www.budgeteuropetravel.com/

With 3 major trips to Italy, France and the UK this company has been 100 percent reliable. My tickets are mailed ahead of time, the owner tells me which ones I can easily buy in Europe, gives me the different timetables and costs.

Mind you I pretty much have figured that out ahead of time. But it is so convenient to have BETS make the seat reservations.

". Spent two hours today on Trenitalia site. Still get no results. I put in my departure and arrival cities---Rome to Florence, Florence to Venice, Venice to Florence, Florence to Rome---and the response tells me these are nonexistant or invalid stations.????????????????"

I had the same problem when I put the actual date of my trip, i.e. June 11th for the traveling date. NOTHING.
When I enter March 11th it shows me all the trains and schedule. My guess is that the website can't see too far in advance, try to put a closer date on your traveling date. It will show times, by Summer the prices may be higher, but timing usually isn't.

Eurail Italy Pass vs Regular Fares:

Rome airport to Rome Termini - 14 euros, all one class
Rome Termini to Florence SMN - 63 euros 1st, 45 euros 2nd*
Florence SMN to Venice SL - 60 euros 1st, 43 euros 2nd
Venice SL to Rome airport - 118 euros 1st, 90 euros 2nd

271 euros 1st class v $239 for a 3-day Saver Eurail Italy Pass
218 euros 2nd class v $196 for 3-day Saver pass

271 euros at 1.30 euros to $ =$353 vs $239 for the pass
in first class

In 2nd class $288 vs $196 for a pass

I added in 3 x 10 euros for seat reservations into the fares so it seems that, contrary to many claims on Fodors that a pass in Italy is always a waste of money that indeed a Eurail Italy Pass can be a great deal - for the OP's travels at regular fares it would cost $353 and $288 respectively vs $239 and $216 p.p.

meaning if you go to Italy and buy regular priced tickets at stations you would save, with a pass $92 p.p. in 1st class and $72 in 2nd class - again mandatory seat reservation fees added in.

And regular 2nd class fares add up to significantly more than a 1st class railpass.

Am I doing something wrong or, if someone desires flexibility once there to take any train they want and not have to pre-book weeks in advance on a specific.

Note this is for a Saverpass as most folks have and per person but even a single traveler would save money.

And the more days on a pass you get - a 4-day the extra days become extremely cheap - about 15 euros in 2nd class I think for say a 4th unlimited travel day.

So folks who want to wait until Italy to make reservations should strongly look at the Eurail Italy Pass - again it seems too good of a deal so please point out my mistakes. I even used an optimal 1$ to 1>30 euro exchange rate which you would not get right now and even many credit cards used in Europe tack on a 3% fee. The pass is only marketed outside Italy so you buy it at no fee in your home country.

Even with some discounted tickets the pass would it seems be better for folks using the trains on several days to go a few hours or so a day.

Forgetting dollars, in these circumstances - a single passenger - what I'm seeing on the Eurail site for a 3 day pass is €210 in 1st - or €171 in 2nd. Add to that €10 for each of 3 reservations and it's €240 or €201.

As against that, at the base fares:

€14 - on the 1st class-only Leonardo Express

€63 (1st) or €45 (2nd) to Florence

€60 or €43 to Venice

€118 or €90 back to Rome and out to Fiumicino

When I add those up, I get totals of just €255 for 1st, and €192 in 2nd... don't you?

Seems to me that the only way this traveller can show any saving with a pass is by convincing herself to go in 1st - whilst ignoring that individual 2nd class tickets would be almost €50 less expensive!

Or am I wrong?

Peter

>>>>Seems to me that the only way this traveller can show any saving with a pass is by convincing herself to go in 1st - whilst ignoring that individual 2nd class tickets would be almost €50 less expensive!

Or am I wrong?

Peter<<<<

Peter - PalQ posted this same thing on another thread, but his figures are wrong as they are on this thread. He included the price of the airport train for the p-t-p 2nd class tickets, but did not add it to the pass cost. Here is my post:

*****kybourbon on Jan 30, 12 at 6:28pm

>>>Am I doing something wrong or<<<<

Yes. Somehow your figures aren't right. I think perhaps it's because you have added the airport train ride in with the 2nd class point-to-point, but not with the pass (it's not covered by the pass).

2nd class point-to-point
R/F 45€
F/V 43€
V/R 76€

Total point-to-point 2nd class tickets 164€ ($216)

2nd class saver pass
$196 + mandatory seats (x3 train rides) $39.63 =
$235.63

P-t-P $216
Pass $235.63.

You would need to add the cost of the airport train onto both. Additionally, most people these days are booking the discount Mini Fares which can save you as much as 60% off the point-to-point prices I listed.****

Ok - understand now. First class a pass is significantly cheaper and for the trip of a lifetime I always advise first class as there are significant differences that make it a more relaxed trip - not to say 2nd class is a cattle car but seats are smaller, more full, less room for luggage, etc. and no single-row seats that to me at least are pricelss - seats with an aisle and a window

and in 2nd class folks traveling several days on trains may find passes a better deal as the extra days after the base price of 3 days on a pass are only $15 per day in 2nd class and 20$ per day in first or ab out 11 euros a day for fully flexible tickets and or in first class 16 euros - 16 euros for a day of unlimited first class trains - so if you add on several days - granted not usual but some may - then the pass may even be cheaper than mini fares or online discounts.

I only say never say never about passes as has been the mantra on Fodors in the past - never ever see mention of them as a viable possibility for some reason and the constant mantra that 2nd class is just as good as first class - it ain't (as Man in Seat 61 clearly said recently here) - on the trip of a lifetime go first class IMO. But again 2nd class on Italy's ever modernizing railways is not a cattle car - just that first class is significantly nicer and that's why zillions of Italians pay extra to ride in it.

PalQ - It's not helpful to insist on your 1st class mantra when someone is asking about discounts. It also isn't helpful to price lots of extra pass days when the person isn't going to be using them. Buying something you don't need is never a bargain.

As most people point out (including Man in Seat 61), 2nd class is perfectly fine and that's what the majority of people book. This isn't the old days when trains took hours and were scuzzy. There are high speed rails now with newer, faster trains. The trains priced on this thread (AV fast trains) are short journeys (Rome/Florence is only 90 minutes)and very modern. Certainly not cattle car.

2nd class AV train picture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fr...ssainterno.jpg

>>>jrecm on Jan 30, 12 at 12:08am
Annettafly,
Sounds like we are of the same vintage (age).I like independent travel, but like to reserve my major train tickets ahead of time, I always use http://www.budgeteuropetravel.com/<<<

Budget Europe Travel is another reseller. You will pay more to book with them than using the Italian train company Trenitalia.

>>>pookymimi on Jan 30, 12 at 2:16pm
I had the same problem when I put the actual date of my trip, i.e. June 11th for the traveling date. NOTHING.
When I enter March 11th it shows me all the trains and schedule. My guess is that the website can't see too far in advance, try to put a closer date on your traveling date. It will show times, by Summer the prices may be higher, but timing usually isn't.<<<<

Summer schedules start mid-June which is why you are having problems. These schedules might not be posted on Trenitalia until late May, but keep checking.

My kids and I traveled Portugal, Spain, Italy and Switzerland with the Eurailpass 2 years ago. It did help a lot having that little pouch on us.

In one instance we couldn't get our reservation ahead of time in a small town in Italy and we hopped in the train and stand in the hall, when the train inspector came she saw our pass and passports and said "No problem". I believe if we had not had that pass we would've been fined big time. Pass also allowed us to travel between airport and downtown in Zurich without having to pay, also checked by inspectors.

I felt much more confident having the pass as we traveled extensively in trains all over in 2nd class.

I believe if you are young not too into the best of best, 2nd class is perfectly fine. We were really impressed on the quality of 2nd class for the trains in Italy and Switzerland trains are incredible.

I forgot!
The eurailpass also gives discount in ferries, it gave me discount in our Grimaldi ferry from Barcelona to Civitavecchia, about 100 euros for the 3 of us.

I'm amazed by everyone's efforts to help us iron out this stubborn wrinkle! With each reply I get more understanding and pieces of info that help me see the whole picture. A couple of you have the same numbers I've found: 45E each way for Rome-Florence, 43E each way for Florence-Venice. That's 176E vs the 4-day 2nd class Pass Saver at 216E (plus those additional reservation charges: Outrageous! And the 14E each way from airport to Termini). You're right KYbourbon, I'm not a 1st class traveller---did the Europe on $5da with the backpack in 1969---and at 64 I'm still travelling on the cheap. I haven't found "minis" as an option on any site. And advance booking does carry a risk so I don't know if I even want to risk it for a few dollars saved. Thank you all :)

OK, I'm catching up - and found this in the 'Extra Info' section re Eurail's Italy pass... which, presumably, one can believe?

"From Rome Fiumicino International airport,there are connections to Roma Tiburtina/ Ostiense (train every 15 minutes- all Passes are accepted) and Roma Termini (train every 30 minutes - only 1st class Passes are valid on the Leonardo Express.)"

So, for everything as originally asked but with 4 travelling days rather than three (ooops!), in the currency of the country...

In 2nd class: One-person 4 day Pass: 190 + (4 * 10) + (2 * 14) = €258... or Tickets, as before, €192

In 1st class: Same type of Pass 233 + (4 * 10) = €273... or Tickets, as before, €255

And I'd say that entirely rules out either Pass?
___________________________________

Looking two months ahead, as you seem to be doing, I'm getting this sort of thing with the "Frecce" version of the Trenitalia site - by starting here...

http://www.fsitaliane.it/cms/v/index...003f16f90aRCRD

For the first of your journeys, on Wednesday April 4th... just before the Easter holidays (a time at which the best Mini bargains may well have been snapped up by now!) - although I'd suggest, with flight delays possible, not choosing a Mini for this one:

http://www.pbase.com/isolaverde/image/141237918

(Unavoidable 1st class to Termini at €14 and then 2nd class to Firenze - Base fare, not Flessible, at €45 - to make €59 total)

And an afternoon trip up to Venice from there, on the next but one Friday (the 13th ???), with which you might nonetheless feel OK risking the Mini's terms and conditions - so as to buy at €26 instead of €43 ?

http://www.pbase.com/isolaverde/image/141237919

If you did want to secure something near that price, and are still unable to get your card to work with any of the Trenitalia sites, here's what Italiarail.com (an American site, where it may be more readily accepted) shows at the moment for the first of those trains... with the Mini at $36 and - I believe, but haven't checked - no delivery charges for the e-ticket version?

http://www.pbase.com/isolaverde/imag...37920/original

Good luck!

Peter

PS: For those wanting post-May 6th travel - seemingly still no word from Trenitalia, but plenty of speculation.... in these and other discussions!

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTop...ome_Lazio.html

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowTop...nce-Italy.html

PalQ - It's not helpful to insist on your 1st class mantra when someone is asking about discounts. It also isn't helpful to price lots of extra pass days when the person isn't going to be using them. Buying something you don't need is never a bargain.>

bourbon - re-read the OP - it mentions nothing about discounts on train tickets - talks only about passes so your comment is strictly out of line.

And what is the harm of presenting ALL the options and not just your prescriptive ones? Do you ever talk about the restrictions on the discounted tickets - do you ask if someone wants flexibility to chose what trains they want once there - do you ever even mention there are two classes of travel - well you do but only to say, in your OPINION that the extra cost of first class ain't worth it - well my OPINION differs from you and your attempts to dictate what I or others can post is out of line. What harm does giving a contrary opinion make - well to you it seems to mean a lot so as nothing departs from your prescriptive this is the only option take.

I will not be bullied by you and will state my OPINION freely.

PQ - The OP's opening post is about trying to get a discount. Her second post is about the prices being so high and way more than she was planning. Her third post ponders whether she wants to take the slower IC train to save money.

>>>Yes, Jean---I see a choice for the Rome to Florence leg--- an ES for 45euro or an IC for 30euro. So the question is, Do I want to spend $20 to cut my travel time in half? Probably.<<<<

I don't think my comment is out of line at all when the OP is trying to find bargains. Your need to go on every train thread and push a 1st class pass does not help people looking for discounts or trying to save money.

>>>>You're right KYbourbon, I'm not a 1st class traveller---did the Europe on $5da with the backpack in 1969---and at 64 I'm still travelling on the cheap. I haven't found "minis" as an option on any site.<<<<

The mini fares show on Trenitalia (you shouldn't use other sites) after you select the train you want if minis are still available. Instead of using the regular Trenitalia link, you can use the LeFrecce link Brit linked. It only shows the faster AV,ES,ESCity and IC trains. It won't show the slow R trains. It shows more fare choices at a glance. You must use the Italian spelling for the cities (Roma,Firenze,Venezia).
http://www.fsitaliane.it/cms/v/index...003f16f90aRCRD

Here are the rules about mini fares. There is no reason not to save money by booking these if you know you are traveling somewhere on certain days. I wouldn't book for my arrival in Italy day as your flight may be delayed.
http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/inde...003f16f90aRCRD

Trenitalia also offers other specials such as the Saturday 2 for 1 through Feb. They've extended this several times so it's possible they might again. You can check the deals here and see if there is anything you can use closer to your trip.
http://www.trenitalia.com/cms/v/inde...003f16f90aRCRD

Don't rule out buses (especially day trips from Florence to many cities)as an option in Italy as they are often just as fast at the trains for some connections and cheap. Also the airport buses, Sit Bus and Terravision, can be more convenient than the train to Termini as they are not as long of a schlep and your luggage is stored under the bus so you don't have to haul it up the train stairs.

>>>PS: For those wanting post-May 6th travel - seemingly still no word from Trenitalia, but plenty of speculation.... in these and other discussions!<<<

I'm beginning to think May 6th doesn't exist.

Peace! Peace, guys. This is all so exciting for me as it's the first cyberspace conversation I've ever participated in :)I'm enjoying everyone's imput. Although it's massively convenient, this form of dialogue has its weaknesses. I really appreciate you all sticking with me on this bumpy road to understanding. I've been a difficult student but you're good teachers. We do plan to use buses for side trips out of Florence (four mature but nutty American women sharing an apartment and taking two-week courses at Scuola Leonardo da Vinci---checking off bucket-list items). 'Til next time.

bourbon - the more info IMO and more options the better - let folks decide what is best for them. There is no one option that is best. I will continue to tell why I feel - my opinion that on the trip of a lifetime most tourists should pay the extra and go first class - for all the reasons I have opined about. Folks here are spending $200 or more a night on hotels; probably $100 a day on food, etc - I think they should put the same criteria to train travel as they do to those things. They could save lots of money staying in pensions and eating at McDonalds (in Italy McDonalds have down-home Italian food buffets as well as Big Macs) - this is my opinion and you will not intimidate me as to giving my opinion. You have your opinion that the online and severely restricted tickets that often have to be booked way in advance are automatically for everyone the way to go - well flexibility to me is valuable and to others as well but this does not seem to dawn on you... your prescriptive approach is fine for you but others may have other requirements. You scold someone for arranging their tickets ahead of time thru a travel agent - saying they are overpaying yet not seemingly read their reason - they will pay more to have a ticket in hand and just show up for the train. No trying to navigate for many a very fickle www.trenitalia.com site - yet another current post mentions the two hours of frustrations one novice user encountered (what may be a snap to an old pro like you often seems to flummox novice users) - but this person said they prefer to have it all done ahead of time - they may not want to rely on retrieving a ticket once in Italy - of trusting giving some code to some conductor - things that you, a veteran, know is no problem - but you just seem not to put yourself in the shoes of a novice traveler who may want ticket and reservation in hand and just show up for the train - they know they are paying extra yet you scold them for not spending often hours on trenitalia.com to save a few euros - to them the service provided is priceless and if you actually look at RailEurope fares now you will know that for full fare and fully flexible tickets (another concept that seems to escape you - some folks do desire to chose which trains they want to take once there - on RE are now not that much more than on trenitalia.com - granted the online trenitalia.com discounts are not generally on RE - but those again are in practice it seems non-changeable non-refundable and thus fine for folks that is OK with - but believe it or not some folks want flexibility and fully changeable and refundable tickets.

I have my opinions and I will not be intimidated by you not to give them - IMO the more information the better - and I do not see why you argue with that basic concept. Say what you want and I will say what I want - both in our opinion giving the best possible advice.

Capiche?