Islam extremists a danger in Amsterdam?

Mar 23rd, 2008, 03:50 PM
  #21  
 
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Ahh... This is fun. I was waiting for the first Fodor thread that would try to address the gulf between Europeans and Islam.

For the better part of the last half century, European countries have been comfortably importing (largely Islamic) people to Europe to clean their toilets or sweep their streets. And, in that whole time, they have been denying those people, and their European-born children the rights and privileges of the European states where they reside, probably hoping that the US could once again be cast as the bad guy. Lest they admit their fear of, "the other..." And, by "the other..." I mean, a non-white, non-Christian, minority.

I mean, what else are we to make of Dutch politicians who don't really understand what "facist" means? They toss the word around, because they know it will cause a ruckus. It doesn't matter whether Islam is at all facist (it is not). What such politicians are really afraid of is multiculturalism.

And such fear is acceptable, in some way. Except when there is no consequence for those who toss it around. Europeans like to stir the pot with regards to their beliefs about Islam because they feel they can always claim that those who ask them to support their hatred toward Islam are "anti-free speech." And they can always pretend that the Middle East would be a land of milk and honey of the US was not involved.

Frankly, it all kind of irks me. I live in Denmark, and I am incredulous that Danes can't understand why the "Mohammed Cartoons" might cause the stir that they did. The drawings conflated an entire religion with terrorism. This is not rocket science. It is about being even remotely aware of the power of the printed word. And if you don't respect that power, then you don't belong in journalism.

To some extent, I actually respect Mr. Wilders. I think him a racist. I think him uninformed. I think he knows nothing of Islam or religion or human behavior. But, at least he is willing to come out and claim that Islam is the enemy. The rest of Europe is willing to pretend that they only object to parts of the Koran, or that they think the clerics are twisting the Koran. When, in reality, France and Holland and Denmark and Germany and Spain are hardly ready for a truly multicultural citizenry.

To Europeans: Man Up. Accept that you have treated the Turks or Moroccans or Cypriots or Egyptians like garbage for 50+ years. Quit blaming the US for 200+ years of European colonialism. Take an active roll in fixing the problems. Get off your high horse.

At the very least, quit pretending Americans are idiots because they are concerned about problems that you have caused. If Amsterdam blows up, it won't be because the Dutch are pro-free speech, it will be because Mr. Wilders doesn't understand what constitutes facism (he doesn't), and that Europeans don't care, as long as it is anti-Islam and they can wrap it in the flag of free speech.
travelgourmet is offline  
Mar 23rd, 2008, 03:50 PM
  #22  
 
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danon -
I agree - how to spot American tourist compared to other tourists? Maybe a sewed canadian flag in your pink velour fanny pack?

champ - to ask on ask on Easter Sunday is a bit....

any type of overly religious person has issues- problems - is basically.... well, it's not polite to say....

religion is a PRIVATE matter - any person who tries to impose their beliefs on society is screwed up (and I'm being polite).
Carta_Pisana is offline  
Mar 23rd, 2008, 04:22 PM
  #23  
 
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Travelgourmet: "For the better part of the last half century, European countries have been comfortably importing (largely Islamic) people to Europe to clean their toilets or sweep their streets. And, in that whole time, they have been denying those people, and their European-born children the rights and privileges of the European states where they reside, probably hoping that the US could once again be cast as the bad guy."

This comes from a European whose country has been a colony except for the past 90 years. And whose people left to clean streets and toilets of other countries still 30 years ago. My question to you is: What rights and privilegies those "imported" people donīt have that the original residents have?
elina is offline  
Mar 23rd, 2008, 04:24 PM
  #24  
 
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Those who complain about responses to the OP that they consider rude should ask themselves why many Europeans (and, indeed, many Americans) become exasperated by such questions.
Padraig is offline  
Mar 23rd, 2008, 04:42 PM
  #25  
 
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Islam seems to be the only religion that is out of bounds for any criticism. All other religions seem to be fair game for mocking and ridicule.

And travelgourmet, could you tell me what rights are not given to these minorities ??



cruiseluv is offline  
Mar 23rd, 2008, 05:07 PM
  #26  
 
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Given the birthrate and open borders situation, Holland will be largely Islamic in 50 years.
degas is offline  
Mar 23rd, 2008, 05:27 PM
  #27  
 
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"For the better part of the last half century, European countries have been comfortably importing (largely Islamic) people to Europe to clean their toilets or sweep their streets.'

It seems that those people were not exactly dragged to Europe - they came looking for a better life than they had in their own country.

Of course many Europeans countries are not ready for a multicultural society. Their population had been homogeneous for centuries .
America, Canada and Australia have been referred to as : the "land of immigrants" , a "multicultural societies" e.t.c.

No racism there. Right !
danon is offline  
Mar 24th, 2008, 12:53 AM
  #28  
 
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Terrorism is indeed still a serious threat all over the Western World.

Here's an article from March 20 about Bin Laden's newest threat against Europe in retaliation over the Islamic cartoons.

http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/news/in...ti&sid=8878191

It's not targeted at Amsterdam in particular, but it does make it clear that terrorism is still alive and kicking.
kleeblatt is offline  
Mar 24th, 2008, 01:10 AM
  #29  
 
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travelgourmet ignores that many of those "important" workers and their EU born children could already choose to become naturalized and would be granted the citizenship of their host country.
Many already chose that option. Others did not, for many reasons - from strong ties to their home countries to laws which do not allow dual citizenship.

Countries run their scheme of citizenship usually on either of two principles: either you were born in that country, or your parents or ancestors had that citizenship. I don't see any right or wrong in having either of those two principles enforced.

It also ignored that many immigrants enjoy more religious freedoms in Europe than in those countries they came from, compare Turkey as a strict lay state (until current shift to more tolerance against exercising religion in public). Or that in some countries of origin Shiites ruled over Sunnites or vice versa. Muslims are not one homogenous group of people that could be lumped together, for good or worse.

The Mohammed caricatures were neither especially funny, nor a wise thing to do. Agreed.
But hurting someone's religious freedoms is not something that is of higher value than freedom of expression or of the press.

Millions of conservative Christians have to accept that their kids can browse thru adult magazines at any newsstand in Copenhagen or Amsterdam. Stand up comedy TV shows are full of jokes about the Pope, Buddha, or Tom Cruise. Does the Vatican -- nowadays ;- -- call for a crusade to kill the "offenders", does your local church burn newspapers and flags?

I will not give one group of people the right to tell me what I can read, watch, or listen to -- neither the Catholic or Protestant churches, nor the Muslim communities.
Cowboy1968 is online now  
Mar 24th, 2008, 03:22 AM
  #30  
 
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This is getting wildly of topic.
There is no more danger to an American tourist in Amsterdam then anywhere else in Europe, there is no more danger to an American tourist in Amsterdam than there is to any other tourist in Amsterdam. There is no more danger to an American tourist in Amsterdam that to any of the many different nationalities that reside in Amsterdam.
You are more likely to get hit by a tram than suffer any kind of terrorist attack.

Btw Pim Fortuyn was shot by an animal rights activist, not a Muslim of any kind.
Maroccans in the Netherlands have dual nationality - the are not allowed to give up their Maroccan noationality. They are onne of a very small group of nationalities to have this priveledge in the Netherlands. I would have to give up my British citizenship to take up Dutch citizenship. Since the only thing it would offer me is the chance to vote I have chosen to remain British. Everyone legally residing in the Netherlands has the same rights and priveledges, with the exception of voting in national elections which is only open to Dutch citizens.
Immigrants, any immigrants, can even claim child benefit for children in their home country, and can have their pension paid to them in their home country should they choose to return there on retirement.
hetismij is offline  
Mar 24th, 2008, 03:31 AM
  #31  
 
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travelgourmet,

Did you really say this:

"At the very least, quit pretending Americans are idiots because they are concerned about problems that you have caused."

THAT YOU HAVE CAUSED? WHO ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT - EUROPEANS?

OK. Now let's see, those idiots who flew into the twin towers could have flown into a high rise in any European capital you care to name. They didn't. WHY????

Because of America's unthinking, uncritical, unswerving support of Israel - that's why. And since 7/11 - oh sorry, that's a cheap perfume, 9/11 - America's idiotic foreign policy has just made things worse.

Better stop before I say something I might regret.

And am I angry? yes I bloody well am. About everything that has happened since 9/11. Loss of liberty; police states; cameras on every corner; Big Brother watching you. Iraq a total mess. And then someone has the audacity to ask if they will be "safe from Islamic extremists" in Amsterdam.

If it isn't a wind up, then it just reinforces everything I have just said.


afterall is offline  
Mar 24th, 2008, 03:32 AM
  #32  
 
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In all honesty you're more at risk from pissed and stoned Brits on a stag party or being bored to death by the awful food.

I have to worry though. Does the OP actually reflect current yankee opinions? If so we're in serious trouble.
Cholmondley_Warner is offline  
Mar 24th, 2008, 03:38 AM
  #33  
 
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>>>>>
About everything that has happened since 9/11. Loss of liberty; police states; cameras on every corner; Big Brother watching you.
>>>>>

no, we've had cameras on every street corner for decades. started as a result of the ira, now it's just the only way british authorities know how to combat street crime. we don't feel safe without them. we crave more and more cctv cameras to watch our every move. there are more cctv cameras in little britain than in the whole rest of the world combined.

don't try to take credit for our invention.
walkinaround is offline  
Mar 24th, 2008, 04:07 AM
  #34  
 
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walkin.

Disagree. For decades means since 1988 and that is simply not true.

I just wish the UK didn't follow the USA so blindly. Biometric passports, identify cards. All because the poor old USA got a wake-up call.

I hear what you are saying about the IRA. Maybe that's why Brits are more sanguine about the whole terrrorist thing. Americans just have no idea. Never attacked in WW2, had all that reds under the bed stuff during the 50s (though doubt the OP is up to speed on that). They are so used to being king of the castle, invulnerable.

No idea, really.
afterall is offline  
Mar 24th, 2008, 04:24 AM
  #35  
 
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my point was that we had cctv all over our streets long before 9/11 and long before america started its relatively limited use of cctv on public streets (mostly high profile areas of large cities). we have them all over our public streets...even in small villages.

if you think that the uk is following the US in the use of cctv cameras, i disagree and you are wrong.

we are also pioneering in our plans to eventually fingerprint all air passengers...this practice will start with the new terminal 5 but will eventually be spread to all airports and all travellers (domestic and overseas flights).

we also record movements like no other society. registration plates are routinely recorded all over our roads and motorways and end up in government databases.

and there are other examples in europe...italy and its requirement that all foreigners be registered at the local police station.

we can teach you a thing or two about stripping liberties from our citizens and foreign visitors. how dare you portray yourselves as the leader in this regard!
walkinaround is offline  
Mar 24th, 2008, 04:46 AM
  #36  
 
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<<Never attacked in WW2>>

And Pearl Harbor was a fantasy concocted on a film set by Roosevelt to drag the country into the war.
laverendrye is offline  
Mar 24th, 2008, 06:02 AM
  #37  
Jed
 
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Why was America attacked?

afterall <Because of America's unthinking, uncritical, unswerving support of Israel ->

That's not what OBL said. His first complaint was bitterly about American troops on the holy soil of Saudi Arabia, then America stood in the way of Islamic supremacism, and the complaint about Israel came in distant third.

Facts should come before bias.

America's support of Israel is a support of democracy over thugocracy.
Jed is offline  
Mar 24th, 2008, 10:10 AM
  #38  
 
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<<< America's support of Israel is a support of democracy over thugocracy. >>>

Ha Ha Ha
alanRow is offline  
Mar 24th, 2008, 10:16 AM
  #39  
 
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Think this one could get ugly. Why dont we all just step away from the keyboards a moment and take a deep breath.
wellididntknowthat is offline  
Mar 24th, 2008, 10:29 AM
  #40  
 
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"I just wish the UK didn't follow the USA so blindly. Biometric passports, identify cards. All because the poor old USA got a wake-up call.'

I think the UK got a wake call itself on a few occasions recently. Unless, that is, bombings by Islamofascists don't count.
degas is offline  

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