Is this a good location in Venice?
Jun 29th, 2004, 01:24 PM
#21
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Can someone please clarify...
When people say this is "not a good location", are they saying that the location is seedy and undesirable in terms of asthetics (rundown, unsafe, just not nice - i.e, the "Harlem" of Venice), or is it just that it is not as close to San Marco as other sestieri?
When people say this is "not a good location", are they saying that the location is seedy and undesirable in terms of asthetics (rundown, unsafe, just not nice - i.e, the "Harlem" of Venice), or is it just that it is not as close to San Marco as other sestieri?
Jun 29th, 2004, 03:00 PM
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Some people think that the only good locations are in the vicinity of the big 3 - San Marco, Rialto and/or Accademia. I disagree! Those are places to avoid staying in unless you're traveling in the low LOW season.
Jun 29th, 2004, 03:31 PM
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Wanderer,
I do not recall that anyone on either of the two threads said anything to indicate that the location is "seedy," "rundown," "unsafe" or anything to even vaguely hint that it was "the 'Harlem' of Venice."
Let me go back to one of your first posts. You said you were looking for something in an area that was similar to Greenwich Village or the Ile de la Cite in Paris. I don't know Paris well (I've been there three or four times, but I never warmed to it as I did to Venice -- and to Italy in general), so let's take the Greenwich Village comparison. I remember visiting friends who lived in Greenwich Village: there was life on the streets, from morning till late at night; there were lots of restaurants, ranging from inexpensive to more refined; there were cafes; there was Balducci's (trust me to remember the Italian element!), which was thronged with people who looked as if they were enjoying it as an "outing" on a Saturday morning.
The last time I was in the area of San Giacomo dell'Orio (at the end of April last year), I was looking for the Palazzo Something-or-other, which is located on the street ("calle"
that leads directly to the San Stae vaporetto stop. (I've lent my most detailed Venice guidebook to a friend, or I would be able to give you the name. It's a relatively unvisited museum, in which a suite of rooms have been kept the way they were in the 18th century; it's also a "museum of textiles" -- in the rooms, there are cases with mannequins dressed in 18th-century clothing; one of the dresses is so lovely, I would wear it tomorrow if I could -- and if I fit into it; people were much smaller in the 18th century than we are now.) Admittedly, it was a Sunday morning and overcast; the rain overnight had stopped, but the uneven Venetian paving still had many, many puddles in it. My sense of direction, as I am the first to admit, is not very good. As I wandered around the area looking for the right calle, I saw very few restaurants and almost no shops. I recall that there were one or two restaurants -- more like cafes or bistros than real restaurants -- in the Campo San Polo. I cannot say that I really recall a particular shop, but there must have been a few. Generally speaking, the area seemed lifeless (again, it was Sunday and overcast). The palazzi in the neighborhood seemed just a little bit less "palazzo-like" than in other neigborhoods.
The sestiere closest to Greenwich Village in feeling is, without a doubt, Dorsoduro. Like Greenwich Village, it was the neighborhood where artists (not the Renaissance ones; more the early to mid 20th-century ones) tended to live. Today, there is still life at all hours in many of the campi; the Campo Santa Margherita alone has half a dozen cafes, each frequented by its own particular type of clientele; restaurants are numerous, ranging from the oh-so-correct and oh-so-expensive I Gondolieri across from the Peggy Guggenheim to the Trattoria San Toma on the campo of the same name, where one eats well and inexpensively and, if the weather is good, out on the campo in front of the restaurant. At San Toma, there is a traghetto (a gondola that goes back and forth all day long until a certain hour -- and that costs about .40 Euro per trip) to, if I remember correctly, San Samuele, which is where the Palazzo Grassi is, the palazzo restored with money from the Agnelli family where wonderful special exhibitions are shown. From there, one goes through some of the quieter and then increasingly more frequented calli of the sestiere of San Marco to the Piazza San Marco, without having to follow the Merceria (it has several names as it progresses from Piazza San Marco to the Rialto), which has to be the most crowded, most unpleasant calle in all of Venice. On the Dorsoduro side of the canal and either in Dorsoduro or in neighboring San Polo are the Accademia, Santa Maria Gloriosa dei Frari with its Titians (and -- my favourite -- its Bellini in the sanctuary), the Scuola di San Rocco, with its two floors of wall-to-wall paintings by Tintoretto, the Ca Rezzonico, the museum of 18th century Venice with its two wonderful Guardis, and the Peggy Guggenheim Museum. If you're into the obscure, it's also where the church of San Sebastiano (wall-to-wall frescoes by Paolo Veronese), the Scuola dei Carmini (I'm not sure I have the name right; frescoes by Tiepolo) and, for a change of pace, the only remaining squero (I think; I wish I had the guidebook...) in Venice, where gondolas are built and repaired.
I really, truly do not get a commission from the sestiere of Dorsoduro; it's simply that after a dozen visits to Venice, it's the one where I feel most comfortable, that offers me most of what I am looking for, and that keeps me away from the throngs of day trippers in San Marco (although, and I do agree with other posters who have said so, San Marco also has its quiet, secluded calli where the day trippers never venture).
But it does not HAVE to be Dorsoduro: it can be the part of San Polo neighboring on Dorsoduro, or it can even be Castello, on the far side of San Marco: fewer places of interest, fewer restaurants, a little more remote from Dorsoduro and its attractions, but definitely not "touristy."
I do not recall that anyone on either of the two threads said anything to indicate that the location is "seedy," "rundown," "unsafe" or anything to even vaguely hint that it was "the 'Harlem' of Venice."
Let me go back to one of your first posts. You said you were looking for something in an area that was similar to Greenwich Village or the Ile de la Cite in Paris. I don't know Paris well (I've been there three or four times, but I never warmed to it as I did to Venice -- and to Italy in general), so let's take the Greenwich Village comparison. I remember visiting friends who lived in Greenwich Village: there was life on the streets, from morning till late at night; there were lots of restaurants, ranging from inexpensive to more refined; there were cafes; there was Balducci's (trust me to remember the Italian element!), which was thronged with people who looked as if they were enjoying it as an "outing" on a Saturday morning.
The last time I was in the area of San Giacomo dell'Orio (at the end of April last year), I was looking for the Palazzo Something-or-other, which is located on the street ("calle"
that leads directly to the San Stae vaporetto stop. (I've lent my most detailed Venice guidebook to a friend, or I would be able to give you the name. It's a relatively unvisited museum, in which a suite of rooms have been kept the way they were in the 18th century; it's also a "museum of textiles" -- in the rooms, there are cases with mannequins dressed in 18th-century clothing; one of the dresses is so lovely, I would wear it tomorrow if I could -- and if I fit into it; people were much smaller in the 18th century than we are now.) Admittedly, it was a Sunday morning and overcast; the rain overnight had stopped, but the uneven Venetian paving still had many, many puddles in it. My sense of direction, as I am the first to admit, is not very good. As I wandered around the area looking for the right calle, I saw very few restaurants and almost no shops. I recall that there were one or two restaurants -- more like cafes or bistros than real restaurants -- in the Campo San Polo. I cannot say that I really recall a particular shop, but there must have been a few. Generally speaking, the area seemed lifeless (again, it was Sunday and overcast). The palazzi in the neighborhood seemed just a little bit less "palazzo-like" than in other neigborhoods. The sestiere closest to Greenwich Village in feeling is, without a doubt, Dorsoduro. Like Greenwich Village, it was the neighborhood where artists (not the Renaissance ones; more the early to mid 20th-century ones) tended to live. Today, there is still life at all hours in many of the campi; the Campo Santa Margherita alone has half a dozen cafes, each frequented by its own particular type of clientele; restaurants are numerous, ranging from the oh-so-correct and oh-so-expensive I Gondolieri across from the Peggy Guggenheim to the Trattoria San Toma on the campo of the same name, where one eats well and inexpensively and, if the weather is good, out on the campo in front of the restaurant. At San Toma, there is a traghetto (a gondola that goes back and forth all day long until a certain hour -- and that costs about .40 Euro per trip) to, if I remember correctly, San Samuele, which is where the Palazzo Grassi is, the palazzo restored with money from the Agnelli family where wonderful special exhibitions are shown. From there, one goes through some of the quieter and then increasingly more frequented calli of the sestiere of San Marco to the Piazza San Marco, without having to follow the Merceria (it has several names as it progresses from Piazza San Marco to the Rialto), which has to be the most crowded, most unpleasant calle in all of Venice. On the Dorsoduro side of the canal and either in Dorsoduro or in neighboring San Polo are the Accademia, Santa Maria Gloriosa dei Frari with its Titians (and -- my favourite -- its Bellini in the sanctuary), the Scuola di San Rocco, with its two floors of wall-to-wall paintings by Tintoretto, the Ca Rezzonico, the museum of 18th century Venice with its two wonderful Guardis, and the Peggy Guggenheim Museum. If you're into the obscure, it's also where the church of San Sebastiano (wall-to-wall frescoes by Paolo Veronese), the Scuola dei Carmini (I'm not sure I have the name right; frescoes by Tiepolo) and, for a change of pace, the only remaining squero (I think; I wish I had the guidebook...) in Venice, where gondolas are built and repaired.
I really, truly do not get a commission from the sestiere of Dorsoduro; it's simply that after a dozen visits to Venice, it's the one where I feel most comfortable, that offers me most of what I am looking for, and that keeps me away from the throngs of day trippers in San Marco (although, and I do agree with other posters who have said so, San Marco also has its quiet, secluded calli where the day trippers never venture).
But it does not HAVE to be Dorsoduro: it can be the part of San Polo neighboring on Dorsoduro, or it can even be Castello, on the far side of San Marco: fewer places of interest, fewer restaurants, a little more remote from Dorsoduro and its attractions, but definitely not "touristy."
Jun 29th, 2004, 05:46 PM
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<i>"...the location is seedy and undesirable in terms of asthetics (rundown, unsafe, just not nice - i.e, the "Harlem" of Venice)"</i>
I am completely appalled by the insensitivity and downright racist inference of this comment and I have written the editors to have it deleted. Shame on you, wanderer.
Even though much of Manhattan's Black community reside in Harlem, I can assure you Harlem is no slum, and nor does any such thing exist in Manhattan anymore. In fact, the majority of America's middle-class, Black or otherwise, couldn't afford to live in Harlem today.
People really show there true colors here.
I am completely appalled by the insensitivity and downright racist inference of this comment and I have written the editors to have it deleted. Shame on you, wanderer.
Even though much of Manhattan's Black community reside in Harlem, I can assure you Harlem is no slum, and nor does any such thing exist in Manhattan anymore. In fact, the majority of America's middle-class, Black or otherwise, couldn't afford to live in Harlem today.
People really show there true colors here.
Jun 29th, 2004, 06:54 PM
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Ah yes, the mysterious 'some people'. You know, they get far too much credit around here - to really ensure things get screwed up, I offer my company's services (reasonable rates! )
For one low fee, we'll furnish any hapless unsuspecting OP with black-and-white criteria like walking times in lieu of a subjective opinion. And, if you order now, we'll also ensure that simultaneously, those criteria won't be black and white enough! That's right, we'll lead (or should that be, mislead, yuk-yuk) the poor blighter right down the garden path, by neglecting to correct these walking times for crowded routes (i.e., population density of touristic transients, measured at a precise point 1.4445 km from the centre line of the statue of St. What's-his-face in St. Mark's Square......)
Unsatisfying responses or your money back. We guarantee - you'll never want to call on "most people" let alone "some people" again!
(Sorry wanderer, for 'advertising' on your thread. Best of luck to you in your plans. I think you really can't go wrong in either location, especially since your first choice isn't all that far from the border of Dorsoduro.)
*******
Postscript: I just read that last post. NYC, call off your hounds. People make mistakes. They use terms without necessarily considering all the implications. Let she/he who be without the insensitivity sin, cast the first stone.
Or they can hire me......
For one low fee, we'll furnish any hapless unsuspecting OP with black-and-white criteria like walking times in lieu of a subjective opinion. And, if you order now, we'll also ensure that simultaneously, those criteria won't be black and white enough! That's right, we'll lead (or should that be, mislead, yuk-yuk) the poor blighter right down the garden path, by neglecting to correct these walking times for crowded routes (i.e., population density of touristic transients, measured at a precise point 1.4445 km from the centre line of the statue of St. What's-his-face in St. Mark's Square......)
Unsatisfying responses or your money back. We guarantee - you'll never want to call on "most people" let alone "some people" again!
(Sorry wanderer, for 'advertising' on your thread. Best of luck to you in your plans. I think you really can't go wrong in either location, especially since your first choice isn't all that far from the border of Dorsoduro.)
*******
Postscript: I just read that last post. NYC, call off your hounds. People make mistakes. They use terms without necessarily considering all the implications. Let she/he who be without the insensitivity sin, cast the first stone.
Or they can hire me......
Jun 29th, 2004, 07:53 PM
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To Sue: What on earth did you find offensive in my use of the words "some people" in the context of "some people think this, while some people think that"??? Your tirade is lost on me.
Jun 29th, 2004, 08:11 PM
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Actually, I thought the tirade was one of the most creative things she's ever written here. I really enjoyed it.
As for the postscript, no hounds, dear, just a simple email. Insensitivity I can handle, except when racism is at its core.
As for the postscript, no hounds, dear, just a simple email. Insensitivity I can handle, except when racism is at its core.
Jun 30th, 2004, 03:03 AM
#29
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Holly
My apologies if you thought I was ranting at you. I was having a little fun with NYC's oblique references (e.g. "some people insist on applying "black-and-white etiology for such things" when the 'such things' of which NYC was speaking were walking times, a subject introduced not by some faceless mob but by yours truly. So I responded with a little oblique reference of my own (perhaps too oblique, as it turns out.) I was also trying, with greater or lesser success, to have a little fun at my own expense - there are days when I can relate to the techno-compulsive geek Dilbert (of the comic strip) only too well. It is unfortunate that subsequent to my post the thread took on a more serious tone, or you would have perhaps grasped I was speaking in jest.
NYC, regarding your other remarks, what can I say? I'm the type of person who goes around saying things like "black-and-white thinking."
My apologies if you thought I was ranting at you. I was having a little fun with NYC's oblique references (e.g. "some people insist on applying "black-and-white etiology for such things" when the 'such things' of which NYC was speaking were walking times, a subject introduced not by some faceless mob but by yours truly. So I responded with a little oblique reference of my own (perhaps too oblique, as it turns out.) I was also trying, with greater or lesser success, to have a little fun at my own expense - there are days when I can relate to the techno-compulsive geek Dilbert (of the comic strip) only too well. It is unfortunate that subsequent to my post the thread took on a more serious tone, or you would have perhaps grasped I was speaking in jest.
NYC, regarding your other remarks, what can I say? I'm the type of person who goes around saying things like "black-and-white thinking."
Jun 30th, 2004, 04:32 AM
#30
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I apologize to everyone - did not intend my offhand comment to come across as it did.
I am certainly not a racist, and this comment had nothing to do with black or white.
I had just read a similar comment in a guide book about one of the Sestieris being likened to the "Bronx of NY", and was only trying to make a comparison.
So many people have said to stay in a location other than Santa Croce, I was just trying to find out why.
Again, I apologize.
I am certainly not a racist, and this comment had nothing to do with black or white.
I had just read a similar comment in a guide book about one of the Sestieris being likened to the "Bronx of NY", and was only trying to make a comparison.
So many people have said to stay in a location other than Santa Croce, I was just trying to find out why.
Again, I apologize.
Jun 30th, 2004, 06:18 AM
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First, let me address the oblique. Any reference to the term "black and white" mentioned in wanderer's two posts has nothing to do with race or skin color. It's a photographic term which intimates how some people seem to view the world. In other words, everything is either one way or another and there's no room for shades of gray.
Yes, I was pulling Sue's chain because she seems to love semantics and exacting detail. Usually, I do, too, but I'm not as rigid (or as pedantic). Her stop-watch analysis of walking times in Venice made me chuckle because I think walking times should always be seen as approximate because no two people walk at the same pace, especially if one person lives in Manhattan and the other lives in Salt Lake City. This is common sense to me. Factor in a busy, people-packed calle and all any of us can do is hope wanderer has a little bulldozer in her/him to make that reservation at Al Covo on time.
Eloise was just defensive. What else can be said about her need to repeat herself as if anybody misunderstood what she wrote the first time. It's very clear to me what the term <i>"a little too close to the train station"</i> unfairly suggests to a newbie to Venice. I stand by my response (which was direct and did not insinuate) because I think the neighborhoods nearest to Venice's train station are incredibly historical and fascinating, and they make an interesting and very acceptable choice for someone who doesn't wish to do the typical tourist thing, first-timer or not.
Wanderer, I accept your apology. Whether thinly veiled or blatant, racism will always get a rise out of me. Comparing Castello to the Bronx may sound clever in print but it's extremely unfair, especially if you don't get the subtleties of the comparison (which can only be understood by a sophisticated New Yorker who knows the Bronx well). Bronx, in this context, is meant to read "South Bronx," which is a specific area well known for its gutted, abandoned buildings, urban blight, and drug-infestation while other areas of the Bronx thrive with many up-scale neighborhoods. The Bronx is also a multi-cultural Borough of New York City but it is not located in Manhattan. Yes, Castello has abandoned buildings but so does San Marco and Dorsoduro. There are no drug dealers in Venice, only fake-purse street merchants.
Harlem is far less multi-cultural (although that's changing) and it is located in Manhattan, which makes its real estate worth that much more. There was a time when Harlem could be used to describe urban decay but that time ended many, many years ago. Yes, regentrification has come to Harlem and most middle-to-upper class Black families are enjoying the benefits.
Venice doesn't have any urban blight. There is no such thing as a bad, seedy, or unsafe area. Even in prosperous times, Venice's working class lived among the wealthiest residents, something uniquely indigenous to Venice. There were no poor people, per se.
Yes, many buildings remain vacant and boarded-up today. But, they cost a fortune to buy and an even greater fortune to fix up. Maybe wanderer will consider relocating after a week's stay in a "local" neighborhood.
Yes, I was pulling Sue's chain because she seems to love semantics and exacting detail. Usually, I do, too, but I'm not as rigid (or as pedantic). Her stop-watch analysis of walking times in Venice made me chuckle because I think walking times should always be seen as approximate because no two people walk at the same pace, especially if one person lives in Manhattan and the other lives in Salt Lake City. This is common sense to me. Factor in a busy, people-packed calle and all any of us can do is hope wanderer has a little bulldozer in her/him to make that reservation at Al Covo on time.
Eloise was just defensive. What else can be said about her need to repeat herself as if anybody misunderstood what she wrote the first time. It's very clear to me what the term <i>"a little too close to the train station"</i> unfairly suggests to a newbie to Venice. I stand by my response (which was direct and did not insinuate) because I think the neighborhoods nearest to Venice's train station are incredibly historical and fascinating, and they make an interesting and very acceptable choice for someone who doesn't wish to do the typical tourist thing, first-timer or not.
Wanderer, I accept your apology. Whether thinly veiled or blatant, racism will always get a rise out of me. Comparing Castello to the Bronx may sound clever in print but it's extremely unfair, especially if you don't get the subtleties of the comparison (which can only be understood by a sophisticated New Yorker who knows the Bronx well). Bronx, in this context, is meant to read "South Bronx," which is a specific area well known for its gutted, abandoned buildings, urban blight, and drug-infestation while other areas of the Bronx thrive with many up-scale neighborhoods. The Bronx is also a multi-cultural Borough of New York City but it is not located in Manhattan. Yes, Castello has abandoned buildings but so does San Marco and Dorsoduro. There are no drug dealers in Venice, only fake-purse street merchants.
Harlem is far less multi-cultural (although that's changing) and it is located in Manhattan, which makes its real estate worth that much more. There was a time when Harlem could be used to describe urban decay but that time ended many, many years ago. Yes, regentrification has come to Harlem and most middle-to-upper class Black families are enjoying the benefits.
Venice doesn't have any urban blight. There is no such thing as a bad, seedy, or unsafe area. Even in prosperous times, Venice's working class lived among the wealthiest residents, something uniquely indigenous to Venice. There were no poor people, per se.
Yes, many buildings remain vacant and boarded-up today. But, they cost a fortune to buy and an even greater fortune to fix up. Maybe wanderer will consider relocating after a week's stay in a "local" neighborhood.
Jun 30th, 2004, 08:20 AM
#32
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NYCFoodSnob: Perhaps you underestimate the intelligence of even a "newbie" to Venice. I credit Wanderer with the ability to read a map, to see that the Grand Canal separates the location of the dell'Orio apartment from the train station, and to know that trains cannot cross the water. I do not see precisely what kind of "train station activity" you thought was "suggested" by my statement.
Incidentally, the intermingling of the wealthy and the working classes is in no way "uniquely indigenous to Venice." But please don't accept my word for it. Instead, find a copy of the last collection of Luigi Barzini's essays entitled "Memories of Mistresses" and read the first chapter, "Italy and Its Aristocracy." Venice is mentioned, certainly, but so are Rome, Milan, and Florence. I quote a single sentence: "In ALMOST ALL Italian cities the palaces of the great historic families are erected in the middle of the old popular quarters." (I apologize for the CAPs; I haven't found out how to do bold or italic in these messages.)
Incidentally, the intermingling of the wealthy and the working classes is in no way "uniquely indigenous to Venice." But please don't accept my word for it. Instead, find a copy of the last collection of Luigi Barzini's essays entitled "Memories of Mistresses" and read the first chapter, "Italy and Its Aristocracy." Venice is mentioned, certainly, but so are Rome, Milan, and Florence. I quote a single sentence: "In ALMOST ALL Italian cities the palaces of the great historic families are erected in the middle of the old popular quarters." (I apologize for the CAPs; I haven't found out how to do bold or italic in these messages.)
Jun 30th, 2004, 09:55 AM
#33
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Sounds like some of us might need a vacation or at least a long, relaxing weekend.
Wanderer, we had a difficult time deciding on location in Venice and decided on a hotel in the Cannaregio district. We were very happy with that location but there were many other areas that were very nice as well.
The only area which we did not care for was the immediate area around San Marco Piazza because of the throngs of people. It was just a bit too much for us. But just five minutes away, we found a delightful campo with two smaller hotels which we loved, one hotel was even one of our final three choices. So we would have been happy with either hotel.
Venice is like most cities in ONE respect--walk one or two blocks and the neighborhood has a completely different feel.
Wish I could help with the Riva di Biasio area but that was one neighborhood we did not wanter into.
Wanderer, we had a difficult time deciding on location in Venice and decided on a hotel in the Cannaregio district. We were very happy with that location but there were many other areas that were very nice as well.
The only area which we did not care for was the immediate area around San Marco Piazza because of the throngs of people. It was just a bit too much for us. But just five minutes away, we found a delightful campo with two smaller hotels which we loved, one hotel was even one of our final three choices. So we would have been happy with either hotel.
Venice is like most cities in ONE respect--walk one or two blocks and the neighborhood has a completely different feel.
Wish I could help with the Riva di Biasio area but that was one neighborhood we did not wanter into.
Jun 30th, 2004, 10:03 AM
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Eloise, you certainly do like to beat a dead horse.
If I use Travel Talk as a reference, I'm afraid my outlook on available intelligence is not very favorable. I often wonder if anybody reads or thinks anymore.
Time and time, again, I find what is clear and obvious to me, is missed by so many others. It's proven daily here on Fodors even with our own discussion. Being a photographer, I'm used to this. My eye is trained to zero in on minute detail and suggestion.
"Train station activity" is not a personal attack but, rather, a reference to generalities that typically occur in and around a train station. Everyone (who bothers to read or travel) knows that the train station neighborhoods in Rome, Florence, Naples, etc. are not the most desirable locations for a one-week stay. There is a stereotypical view that train station neighborhoods offer cheaper hotels, therefore the area must be seedy and unsafe, not to mention, noisy, dirty, crowded, and uninteresting, with overpriced bad food and lots of transients walking about.
Venice is unique. The location of its train station (and Piazzale Roma) does not hinder or interfere with the charm or character of its historically important surrounding neighborhoods. Yes, Cannaregio gets the brunt of people coming and going but, a simple stroll down Calle Riello, a mere three minute walk from the train station, offers no indication whatsoever that any major train station is nearby. This calm and quiet is far more apparent in Campo San Giacomo dell'Orio, which is a two minute stroll from the heart of San Polo.
Unless you specifically detail your reasoning, the words "a little too close to the train station" are packed with negative connotations.
Regarding Luigi Barzini, whom I adore, I did not say that Venice was exclusive. The fact that Venice has a geographical construct unlike any other Italian city, makes it unique. The point is, the working class and the Doges shared these tiny islands and lived in harmony. There were no slums.
ps For italics, type < then i then > before the word, then < then / then i then > after the word. Replace the i with b if you want bold. Basic html, dear.
If I use Travel Talk as a reference, I'm afraid my outlook on available intelligence is not very favorable. I often wonder if anybody reads or thinks anymore.
Time and time, again, I find what is clear and obvious to me, is missed by so many others. It's proven daily here on Fodors even with our own discussion. Being a photographer, I'm used to this. My eye is trained to zero in on minute detail and suggestion.
"Train station activity" is not a personal attack but, rather, a reference to generalities that typically occur in and around a train station. Everyone (who bothers to read or travel) knows that the train station neighborhoods in Rome, Florence, Naples, etc. are not the most desirable locations for a one-week stay. There is a stereotypical view that train station neighborhoods offer cheaper hotels, therefore the area must be seedy and unsafe, not to mention, noisy, dirty, crowded, and uninteresting, with overpriced bad food and lots of transients walking about.
Venice is unique. The location of its train station (and Piazzale Roma) does not hinder or interfere with the charm or character of its historically important surrounding neighborhoods. Yes, Cannaregio gets the brunt of people coming and going but, a simple stroll down Calle Riello, a mere three minute walk from the train station, offers no indication whatsoever that any major train station is nearby. This calm and quiet is far more apparent in Campo San Giacomo dell'Orio, which is a two minute stroll from the heart of San Polo.
Unless you specifically detail your reasoning, the words "a little too close to the train station" are packed with negative connotations.
Regarding Luigi Barzini, whom I adore, I did not say that Venice was exclusive. The fact that Venice has a geographical construct unlike any other Italian city, makes it unique. The point is, the working class and the Doges shared these tiny islands and lived in harmony. There were no slums.
ps For italics, type < then i then > before the word, then < then / then i then > after the word. Replace the i with b if you want bold. Basic html, dear.
Jul 1st, 2004, 06:09 AM
#35
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Wanderer, I wasn't offended by your remarks, although I admire your gracious apology.
Some wise and compassionate person once urged us all not to merely do no evil, but also not to hear evil or to see it. We generally have a choice as to how to interpret the remarks we read here; we can either take the best possible interpretation or the worst, and racism is the worst, the most evil interpretation of what you said. That's where I was going when I raised the point about 'black-and-white thinking' (or black-and-white etiology, or whatever). It is indeed a commonplace expression that has not arisen from malice, anymore than your reference to Harlem, written in haste, was meant as malice.
Your graceful apology moves me to say that I'm sorry for my own clumsy responses, and should have said so earlier, as opposed to becoming distracted by games that aren't worth the candle. While my intention was simply to warn you that the walking times supplied by hotels and apartment owners can be optimistic, at best, I probably would have done better to say just that rather than try and revise the times. It would have made things clearer, not to mention be less distracting. Good luck with your plans.
Some wise and compassionate person once urged us all not to merely do no evil, but also not to hear evil or to see it. We generally have a choice as to how to interpret the remarks we read here; we can either take the best possible interpretation or the worst, and racism is the worst, the most evil interpretation of what you said. That's where I was going when I raised the point about 'black-and-white thinking' (or black-and-white etiology, or whatever). It is indeed a commonplace expression that has not arisen from malice, anymore than your reference to Harlem, written in haste, was meant as malice.
Your graceful apology moves me to say that I'm sorry for my own clumsy responses, and should have said so earlier, as opposed to becoming distracted by games that aren't worth the candle. While my intention was simply to warn you that the walking times supplied by hotels and apartment owners can be optimistic, at best, I probably would have done better to say just that rather than try and revise the times. It would have made things clearer, not to mention be less distracting. Good luck with your plans.
Jul 1st, 2004, 02:02 PM
#39
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I would like to thank everyone for their help in our decision where to stay in Venice.
After much consideration, we have decided to stick with our original choice - despite the walking distances!
Our decision was due to a combination of factors - wanting to have air (just in case), wanting to have outdoor space (3 lovely terraces!), and wanting a place that had a local flavor and was not too touristy.
Our airline booking was another matter. It amazes me that all of the frequent flyer flights can disappear on the AM of the 1st day! We've had to juggle quite a bit and will be changing planes more than we like, but hey, that's part of the adventure.
Thank you again for all of your help. We are very excited about this trip!!
After much consideration, we have decided to stick with our original choice - despite the walking distances!
Our decision was due to a combination of factors - wanting to have air (just in case), wanting to have outdoor space (3 lovely terraces!), and wanting a place that had a local flavor and was not too touristy.
Our airline booking was another matter. It amazes me that all of the frequent flyer flights can disappear on the AM of the 1st day! We've had to juggle quite a bit and will be changing planes more than we like, but hey, that's part of the adventure.
Thank you again for all of your help. We are very excited about this trip!!
