wbowles

We booked flights to Venice on Delta, turns out to be an Alitalia code share. We were shocked to discover that the airline absolutely forbids the use of our FAA Aviation approved child safety seat. We were forced to have the seat taken from us and the baby held in our arms. (There were pleny of available seats, three within 10 feet of us)
When I complained, the third time we were permitted to use the seat for cruise as a safety precaution against turbulence on the transalantic leg but were told the seat would be taken from us before landing. Sure enough, two stewards showed up to forcibly remove my 11 month old son from his safety seat and confiscate the seat before landing. Just to make matters better, our seat was positioned so that the overhead bins were positioned with the lip overhead instead of over the aisle as usual. We discovered this when a heavy object (15 or 20 lbs) fell from the overhead bin on takeoff, striking my wife in the leg as she held our infant son.
When I requested the name of the captain, a few minutes later I was asked to come to the flight deck.
There, I met the captain, who told me abruptly that I should be glad the infant was allowed at all (we paid for a reduced ticket), thought he was very generous to break the rules to allow us to have the seat during cruise and he claimed that Italian aviation regulations do not permit the use of infant safety seats. He also somewhat belligerently informed me that FAA certification did not matter and the FAA did not rule the world, quite an obvious chip on his shoulder. I asked him why he permitted it in cruise and not on takeoff, telling him I was concerned about my childs safety. He stated that if I was concerned about the safety of my son I should keep him on the ground. Very confidence inspiring! We met other tourists who purchased the infant seat especially for their trip, also not permitted to use the safet seat on Alitalia. We return to the US tomorrow, please wish us safety. Venice was great, a longer report later but Alitalia obviously cares little about their passengers safety, refusing basic simple safety precautions such as a child safety seat and checking the overhead bins latches.
My family will certainly never fly Alitalia again, I do not appercaiate Delta taking our money and puting us on this substandard airline with no notion of safety.
I have flown many, many airlines, from third world on up, but this is the most blatant refusal to allow simple basic safety standards I have aver seen, even on Royal Jordanian, way near the bottom of the barrel.
There were very few children on our flight and no other infants. If you care about the safety of your children (and yourself), I would urge you to consider a different carrier.

Bailey

Oh, how I can sympathize with you!!!
Alitalia is barbaric!!
I just returned from Venice on Alitalia...it was the wildest !!! The staff had no control over the passengers.....landing at Newark...as the wheels barely touched the ground....dozens of passengers scambled from his/her seats....and opened the bins....everything flying around.
BUT...that was the least of the many 'insults' endured. I am an idiot, I had flown with Alitalia before...thought I'd give 'em another round.
NOT AGAIN!!!

michelleNYC

Wow! Was considering Alitalia flight to Venice early next year. This sounds horrible! Although I don't have any children, the apparent lack of safety or service is truly appalling.

wbowles

I do want to be accurate, the seats were so so, the cabin staff was pleasant and tried to be nice, food was not bad. It was the safety attention and bizarre rules that were so appalling. I can only imagine what their other safety rules could be if they believe with takeoff, landing, turbulence a baby is safer held in the mothers arms than secured in their approved safety seat. I know that takeoff and landing is the most dangerous part of the flight and the captain could not deny it. His assertion that we could use the seat for cruise (grudgingly, after several complaints) but must have it forcibly removed (while my sone was sleeping) and confiscated for landing was not rational and flies in the face of all safety studies in any civilized country.

I am certainly planning a formal complaint with the FAA that they allow this for a flight originating in the US and perhaps other legal options. My Son is precious to me, Alitalia could care less about the safety of my family.

StCirq

wbowles:

I'm not sure I understand what you were expecting. Did you pay for a seat? If not, I don't think any airline is obligated to put your infant in one, whether you've brought a safety seat with you or not. Perhaps I'm not getting what the issue is here...........

wbowles

The issue is not paying for a seat. The issue is that they do not permit the use of child safety seats, period. They claim it is an Italian aviation safety regulation, a highly doubtful claim.
In the US you would be fined and possibly arrested for child endangerment for not using a safety seat. The Alitalia Captain on both of our flights did not permit the use of the child safety seat under any circumstances.
This is a shameful stance for an airline and indicates both great ignorance of safety and a total lack of caring for their customer's welfare.

SloJan

I have the same question as StCirq. Did you purchase a seat for your son? They may have been reacting to your expecting a seat for the reduced price of a lap held infant.

Cheers,
Jan

ncgrrl

Put me in the confused group. If you paid for you son's seat, why did they make you hold the baby in your arms? A paying customer is a paying customer.

I can understand (somewhat) that the Italians don't have to follow the U.S. FAA regulations. Maybe there should be an international infant seat standard? Something for the U.N. or WHO to think about.

Maybe the pilot should watch that Jeff Bridges movie (Fearless, I think) about the plane wreck.

Surlok

I believe that all of our kids and their safety are precious to us. So, for the sake of avoiding problems like this in the future, I strongly advise you, and other travelers who have infants to ask the rules beforehand, meaning before buying the air tickets.

Safety seats, when allowed, shall be placed on an assigned seat. Otherwise, the infant shall travel on his/her parent lap, with a proper safety belt attached to the parent's, and/or on a bassinet when cruising, provided that you booked a center seat on the first row..

StCirq

If they do not allow safety seats under ANY circumstances (including when someone pays for a seat), well, that's certainly rather bizarre. But would you still be this outraged, wbowles, if the flight had been full, with no empty seats? Wasn't that a possibility from the time you bought your tickets? Seems to me there was never any guarantee that your child was going to be able to do anything other than sit on your lap.

Now, if you'd purchased a seat and then were told you couldn't use the safety seat in it, there would be undenial justification for outrage.

Tulips

I have three children, live in Europe and have traveled with them regularly. I never see children in special seats on airlines in Europe, and I have never used them. We sometimes took a small travel seat, but did not use it on the flight, as it was not allowed. I know there has been a discussion about this before, and someone said that the general opinion in Europe is that it is not safe to use childseats on a plane.
And if you do not buy a seat for the child, you certainly have no absolute right to use one.

Jocelyn_P

wbowles says that they paid for a reduced ticket, which is standard for that age unless you plan on holding him/her in your lap. If you pay for a seat, you should be able to supply the necessary accomodations for that person. A baby can't sit in an airplane seat, so what does Alitalia expect? Why should you have to pay the fare if you're required to hold him? As a mom of two toddlers I will NEVER fly Alitalia, even when traveling without the kids. Thanks for the warning, wbowles. I hope you were able to enjoy your trip. I look forward to your report!

Surlok

An infant airfare ( for children below 2 yaers old), costs 10% of the adulf fare, and doesn't allow a seat. The infalt is supposed to travel on the parent's lap. or on a bassinet, provided that the parents booked a forst row, center seat.

A child fare ( for children between 2 and 12 y.o.) costs from 50 to 75% of the adult fare, and a seat is provided, as well as a seat belt.

For different airlines and countries, different rules apply, so, it's wise to ask before buying your ticket.

dutyfree

Just a few things-the FAA does not rule the world. It is an American agency and it oversees all airlines that fly in and out of the USA on basic safety issues,english language spoken on transponders,etc.. There seems to be more to this story as I am very confused.Have you called Alitalia and spoken to a supervisor? I would get a complete clarification from them directly and then get back to us. European Airlines are all different.As to the carryon bins-ever been on an Italian train or bus when it stops?

SloJan

I also live in Europe and fly regularly to the US with two toddlers. We have always used our carseats in PURCHASED seats. There has never been a problem. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a translation issue exacerbated by an irate passenger. An infant fare in lap is about 10% of full fare. A child's fare is about 50% generally. The child gets a seat, the infant doesn't unless the infant pays the child's fare. It makes sense to me.

I think the pilot was being a harda$$ b/c you didn't pay the appropriate fare and just perhaps, you were being belligerant?

Cheers,
Jan

Sue_xx_yy

Those interested in this subject should consult alitalia's website

http://www.alitalia.it/en/fly/travel...ts/infants.htm

and it's Seats for Infants section. The rules for Alitalia are clearly different from many US-based airlines, which do allow and even encourage approved infant seats.

The Alitalia site does indeed claim that on Alitalia flights, it is not possible to book individual seats for infants, and that during take-off and landing they require small children to sit on the lap of the person accompanying them. So the captain, for better or worse, was indeed following his airline's regulations. The site goes on to mention something about a child seat belt to be used during takeoff and landing, but I'm not clear from the site how this works; wbowles, were you issued such a belt?

Moral of story: be sure to establish beforehand if your airline of choice permits specialized infant aviation seats.

e_roz

Safe travels back! I would let Delta know your concerns also. Good luck!

Jocelyn_P

Sue, thanks for the clarification. It is surprising to me that Alitalia doesn't allow infant safety seats, because when I was pregnant and researching car seats, European countries seemed to be ahead of the US in terms of car seat design and safety regulations. Why do they throw all of that out the window when you get on an airplane? Doesn't make sense to me.

And no, the airline should not be obligated to supply you with a seat if you haven't paid for one, but if there's an empty seat right beside you, might you not put your purse there? Or stretch out across both seats? Why is it different if you let your baby sleep there?

Ryn2691

To my knowledge, there is no EU gov't regulation on the use of carseats on aircraft. The UK govt. leaves the rules on carseats up to the airline; it is probable that other European govt's do the same. I've had several UK-based airlines refuse to allow my private carseat on board; my solution was not to fly UK carriers over the water.

Quoting the FAA to a representative of a foreign flag carrier is NOT a good idea; it is pretty much guaranteed to make them defensive. However, if you purchased a seat for the child, you do have a case for complaining to Delta, at least if you advised them that you would be using a carseat and made sure that the seat you were assigned was in a legal position to allow for its use.
If that was the case you should have been advised to Alitalia's policy and offered a different flight.

Bottom line is that if you didn't actually purchase an aircraft seat for the child's use, they were under no obligation to allow you to place him in one, carseat or not.

Wednesday

I feel like it was maybe their attitude and actions that made it worse than their policies. And the overhead bin added insult to injury. I remember as a kid that we stood on seats in the car and now they have requirements, etc. Also other countries do not have requirements for handicap people, etc. like we do. Some countries have different ideas and rules about safety. Granted, you mentioned I thik it was a code share which may have taken you by surprise and you would not have been familiar with their rules and therefore not prepared. And there are also people who would rather hold their child than pay for a seat, not caring about safety, but they flat out don't want to spend the extra money. I agree that it should be required for reasons of safety and comfort for all passengers.