PatriciaV2

Well I don't know whether it's right, but I took a semester a year ago in college and we had an Italian language professor who taught this way??? She did seem to prefer dropping the pronoun. She wouldn't say it was wrong if you used a pronoun, but she often dropped it in speaking. Hmmmm....

Thanks!
Patricia

PatriciaV2

I'm just curious, but I wonder if the dropping of the pronoun is idiomatic and the pronoun is used only for emphasis why do the french not do this too?

Not, saying they should but just wondering why the major variance. Any other languages that drop the pronoun?

Thanks!
Patricia

Spygirl

JW-sorry, but it's no "madness"-I stand by what I've said- in Spanish you nearly always drop the personal pronoun, but you do not in Italian-and I don't know where you learned your Italian, but I can tell you that the best Italian is spoken in Florence, and they do not drop their pronouns there, on the whole (I am not saying ever, but on the whole you do not hear that in Florence). I also have a number of Italian friends, and I don't generally hear them dropping personal pronouns in speaking either!

P.S. Just so we're clear here, I have a master's in German, I have formally studied some 7 or 8 languages, including Arabic, can understand most Germanic-based languages, so I am hardly a novice when it comes to these types of language issues.

JWM91604

Spygirl --

Still love you. In fact you may be my new best friend, as you love to argue as much as I do. But in this case you are wrong. As I would defer to you on Spanish and German (of which I know little and nothing, respectively), you should defer to me on Italian. I don't presume to be the ultimate authority (I'm sure there are others "listening" in to this stupid debate who know better than I), but I know of what I speak in this case. In standard spoken and written modern Italian, the pronoun is not used but for emphasis. In language schools in Florence (and yes, I've been, too), they will teach the pronouns, but they're almost never actually used in real life but for emphasis. -- Now let this bone go and let's discuss another part of the language.

Spygirl

There's nothing more to be said on this one, to be sure, but we'll have to agree to disagree-because I'm just as certain of my position that Italian is by no means like Spanish in this regard., Italians do not drop the personal pronoun when speaking in the same manner as the Spanish do-it is in fact taught in Spanish classes that it IS acceptable to drop the personal pronoun, where it is not taught that way in Italian. And that's all she wrote.

Huitres

My oh my! All this debate over a simple little phrase that needed translation. Another thread should be started!

yviebee

Hi there, just wondering if i_am_kane would be interested in some intermediate italian email exchanges with me? Not sure the other folks in this thread would be appropriate since they seem to be splitting hairs when all I want to do is just write a little Italian. I am looking for someone to write to for practice and I am at about the intermediate level, and I too find it incredibly challenging. It would be fun to have an italian pen pal. If you are interested please let me know and I will give my direct email address. That goes for anyone else who would like to, however, spygirl may be a bit too intense for me.

i_am_kane

Yviebee, Hi, I'm ready to be your "Italian" pen pal.

I really need to get past the textbook, and start using what I've learned. )I've had one year of Italian lessons.)

Spygirl

Yviebee, dear-not to worry, I wouldn't be in the least bit interested in being your pen pal, since I've no need to, and can read Italian just fine. However, in terms of being "intense" I don't think anyone can top your Sicily thread-and for rudeness too, when people were just trying to give you some friendly advice!

JWM91604

Kane and Bee --

I'd be glad to correspond with you. My e-mail is [email protected].

rex

<<Any other languages that drop the pronoun?>>

Though I never studied Latin in school, I think that the omission of pronouns, at least as the subject of a sentence is/was the norm.

And maybe commonly omitted in Portuguese, too?

While an offer to be someone's (e-mail) pen pal seems like a nice enough offer - - I would think that, like playing chess, real time would beat the time gaps of e-mail, hands down. It's no harder to find chat opportunities in Italian (or most any other language - - see yahoo.it,for example) online. A great way to learn - - and most "e-literate" young folks are fairly English-hip, and glad to help language learners.

Spygirl

Okay, this really is my last word on the subject. And again, let's be clear here-we're certainly not speaking of "languages that drop the pronoun" -there's no such thing. What we're speaking of (or what I'm speaking of) is the practice of dropping personal pronouns (as opposed to relative, demonstrative and adjective prounouns) in conversation as a matter of common, and grammatically correct, usage. All languages do this to a certain degree when there is familiar conversation going on, and people are being either lazy or nasty (Ex: are you going to the theatre to see X? "don't know, don't want to go, don't care about it."

But here's the difference: In English it would NEVER be correct to ask "speak English? We would have to use the personal pronoun here: "do you speak English? unless questioning someone in a sarcastic fashion: "hey, speak English, buddy?

The above is what I'm referring to in the context of Romance languages.

I would NOT say, nor have I heard said (other than very colloquially), "parla italiano"? It is correct to say and to hear "Lei parla/tu parli italiano"? On the other hand, in Spanish, one DOES hear and say "habla espanol"? as a matter of common usage, not "habla usted espanol?" (although the latter form is more grammatically correct). Particularly in the written language, Spanish nearly always drops the personal pronouns before the various conjugated verb forms in sentences, where it has been my observation that Italian does not. Also, of course, in French one would not say "parlez/parles francais-one would use the personal pronoun vous/tu.

On the other hand, if someone says to me in Italian, "Come stai, Spygirl? I WOULD respond by dropping the personal pronoun and saying "sto bene, grazie!" - naturally because it's the familiar form between people who are conversing as friends or are well acquainted. There are numerous other examples of this. In Portuguese, the little I've studied seems to be in consonance with Spanish on this point, although not entirely.

So, I think I've defended my position on this matter quite enough, thank you, as well as being confident of what I'm saying. But I do think, Kane, that you might be well-served by looking at Italian chat groups on Yahoo, as Rex suggested, and other Italian language web sites to get a more useful language work-out than simply communicating with one person via email.

jor

I could probably say your original post question in Italian. With the wrong spelling it is " coma' sa' diche l'talino..."

Hope I didn't get it wrong after all these years.

sandi_travelnut

My husband and I are currently taking Italian lessons from an Italian that teaches at a local university. She said it is common practice to drop the pronoun in Italy. She also returns to Italy several times a year to meet with family and friends.

PatriciaV2

I really didn't mean to start one on this point...

Isn't it possible that they teach the pronouns at beginning and several years level in order to make sure they are well learned (because you have to know them), and then as the language learning gets in the advanced stages, they allow you to drop the personal pronoun in certain cases (when appropriate) as the Italians may do?

Patricia

i_am_kane

Thanks for all the "tips." I just can't wait until Tuesday night when I have my regularly scheduled Italian lesson because I am printing this entire thread for my teacher to read.

She doesn't have a computer, so she can't log onto Fodors. This might encourage her to buy one...or not!

yviebee

In regards to the Spygirl's comment about my being rude in the sicily forum, I find that quite rich...its funny how no one seems to want to focus on the ridiculous woman that called me uptight and said I needed to relax and that I needed sedatives and made some incoherent mention of a rabid dog? And I'M the jerk? Some of her comments were even removed by the webmaster off the forum, and I'M rude? Rich indeed! Everyone seems more interested in attacking me for simply retaliating to HER rude comments, with what I felt were carefully couched words. I am very dissapointed in this forum, who wants to be critizized, attacked, to argue or to debate, what fun is that? Furthermore, I find the arrogance on this forum to be stifling and can only imagine that it must take a full time job to keep some of these egos afloat. Good luck to all of you...I'm outtie.

Eloise

Good-bye, Yviebee, we shall not miss you.

The remarks by one woman that so angered you have NOT been removed by the webmaster; one remark -- made by someone else -- that mentioned a rabid dog has been removed.

You would be more credible if you did not try to cloud the issue about your own insufferably arrogant and rude reply to the woman who suggested that you could enjoy Sicily without necessarily being somewhere where other tourists were "too intimidated" -- your words! -- to go.

yviebee

As I said in the Sicily forum....PUH-LEEZ, you obviously missed some of her later posts as you don't seem to have all the facts. Everyone is so busy on this forum talking about EVERYTHING but travel. Ciao Eloise.