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Illicit Entry into a Turkish Monument -- Open Letter to President of Clemson University

Illicit Entry into a Turkish Monument -- Open Letter to President of Clemson University

Old May 29th, 2008, 03:39 AM
  #21  
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Notice that molker never mentions that any of the examples of Turkish culture mentioned in his or her post is the right and correct way to go through life, only that it is regularly done. Though some Turks acknowledged to me that taking the easy way out by ignoring certain relatively minor rules is prevalent, not one Turk other than the professor said that doing so was right. The very best light they shed on the topic is that though it is accepted in some circles, it still is not right.

My point is very simple: I am not commenting about what is or is not common among Turkish culture. That's because any comments coming from my keyboard would be entirely uninformed. Instead, I am commenting only about whether it is right or wrong for Clemson students led by a Clemson professor to enter a closed Turkish monument, while insisting that they are in the right to do so.

Notice also that the right to do so was never mentioned by an Turk nor any person participating in this thread, at least not so far. If anybody wants to post a message saying blatantly that it is right to enter a closed museum, please step up to that plate and do so.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 03:47 AM
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Mike, A few points:

The merchant's opinion may be of interest to you, and certainly it is always gratifying to find someone who agrees with one, but given that nobody is disputing the basic facts (the professor didn't argue that he was circumventing the rules and entering after hours) the merchant's role really isn't that significant. He has no authority either to represent the people or the site - a fact that might be easier to recognize had he supported the professor's view of things instead of yours. In such case, it would be easy to see that regardless of what he said, the principle would still apply.

Regarding the issue of authority, it is unfortunate that instead of engaging the professor and his students as allies in the cause of historic protection and restoration, you mounted a power struggle. The professor might have demonstrated an impudent lack of regard for the administrative bureaucracy/authority in Turkey, but it's a reasonable guess that he and his students do care about the heritage of the country. As it is, I fear it is only too likely that now everything is going to be about you, the professor, the students, the university president - and now it seems you and various other Fodorites - in other words, about everyone and everything EXCEPT the integrity of the site.

As to the site administrators, where are they in all of this? What are their priorities when it comes to the heritage sites they administer? In the scheme of things, where do THEY want the focus of the attention of well-wishers? In other words, why is their opinion the last to be solicited? (In the context of a piece on 'ugly' tourism, the irony of this should not be lost on anyone.)

You mention financial support (let us for the time being ignore that you think it should be extracted in the form of punitive damages levied for whatever reason, since this serves as too much of a distraction.) In any country, for any cause, financial support is always complex. For example, to what agency, to what account should any monies be paid -- bearing in mind that the sticky reality that even in the US, it is not always easy to ensure that such money is managed competently (there are millions of competing charities, for example, and some are managed better than others. And we won't even get into the subject of tax dollars.)

These are questions that need answering, long after the students and the professor have faded into the woodwork.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 03:52 AM
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Grcxx3, your son is particularly mature. That speaks volumes about his parents. Thank you for sharing your story.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 04:00 AM
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Thanks Mike - but I have a feeling it was the intense emotions of his Egypt Culture teacher coming thru!!!!

She was an incredibly knowledgeable woman who deeply valued her country's history and historical sites. I went on a field trip with her (and my son's class) to the religious sites in Cairo and I learned SOOOO much from her.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 04:01 AM
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I agree with the substance of the letter, which I think is very well-written.

What I disagree with is the method. Why announce the apparently inappropriate behavior of one educator to the whole world? And why connect the act of one person with a whole university? Was it Clemson's fault? Should Clemson really have to pay $500 for what you have implied is the "immoral" behavior of one professor?

Have you attempted to communicate your concerns privately and had them rejected? Is that why you are writing an open letter?

Such is the nature of our electronic world that so many things that I think are largely personal and private are made public.

You seem very well educated, Mike, and you may be a Clemson alumni who loves his school so much that he wants to make it better. But on the surface, this open letter looks a little like grand standing to me.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 04:01 AM
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My experiences with the middle east that their genuine warmth and attitude to visitors would be to welcome people into a particular facility (even Americans). Certainly I would never have got into the Krak de Chevaliers without a local asking to get in outside of the official hours (when the locals were still in enjoying the garden).

The issue for me is more western (dare i say Anglo Saxon).
1) did they pay and if not they are thieves and should be branded as such (tattle tale is for children) they stole
2) did they behave correctly towards the locals and say thank you. If not they just add to the "Western problem" which we as travellers and inhabitants of this world do not need.

Finally should our OP have challanged them? Not sure...
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Old May 29th, 2008, 04:04 AM
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If you decide you want to get this to the attention of a wider but more local audience, better papers to write to would be the Greenville News or the Anderson Independent.

Columbia, SC, is the home of the University of South Carolina.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 04:19 AM
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<<Why announce the apparently inappropriate behavior of one educator to the whole world? And why connect the act of one person with a whole university? Was it Clemson's fault?>>

It may not have technically been Clemson's fault, but if the trip consisted of Clemson students led by a Clemson professor - then it was a "school trip" and as such - that teacher and those students represent Clemson and their behaviors (good and bad) reflect on Clemson.

The administration at Clemson should be made aware of this situation. Then - it is THEIR decision as to what action they will (or will not) take.

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Old May 29th, 2008, 04:32 AM
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I totally agree that it should indeed be called to the attention of the University--it is THEIR professor who is supposedly leading these students.
And the Columbia paper will definitely be read in Clemson. Local papers are fine, but bigger is better.
This is appalling lack of respect for a country's antiquities and customs. The guide is getting paid, and was caught "short" by the closing of this site. The professor was blatantly wrong to allow it to happen.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 04:49 AM
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Grcxx3

I agree that the actions of the professor reflect on the reputation of the school.

My question is: Why the open letter? And why are so many people suggesting that this be broadcast through the papers? Heck, maybe we can get CNN, Rush Limbaugh and the CBS Evening News on the case!

Generally, I think public pressure is legitimate when private attempts have failed. If institutions or public officials are intransigent, then we need to try to get public support for our causes. But it would appear that this isn't the case here.

If Mike were one of my co-workers (I am a teacher) and he had a problem with something I had said or done, I think it would be professionally appropriate if he would come to me first. If I couldn't satisfy him, then I think he should go to my superior and voice his concerns.

I would not want him initiating his complaint about me through open letters on forums or through letters to the editor.

I don't think Mike is wrong; I think his methods are.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 05:53 AM
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Maybe it´s my background as a career criminal who has several times crossed the street at a red light without losing sleep for more than two or three nights contemplating the ethical consequences of my doing, but I get the feeling that this is a wee little bit blown out of proportion.

This temple probably stands there for more than two millennia open to all sorts of weather. Walking around the temple isn´t exactly the same as drawing a beard on the Mona Lisa. If an official had seen the group, he would have told them to leave. Or maybe he would have had a chat with the guide. Or they would have been fined 50$. Who knows? But quite certainly the Turkish state has no pressing interest in following this up, so why should anybody else?

As for ill effects on the reputation of Clemson, has anyone contemplated the idea that Clemson might be utterly unknown to the vast majority of the Turkish population?
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Old May 29th, 2008, 06:11 AM
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As you can probably tell from my screen name, I am a graduate of Clemson University, Class of 1991.

First off, let me state that I am a proud Alumni of this fine institution...Go Tigers!!!!!

While I do feel that it may have been inappropriate for the group to enter the Temple after hours, they were led by a professor from Turkey and a Turkish guide, both of whom would be better versed in the customs of Turkey. Based on what I've read, the rules for such things in Turkey may be quite different from what we experience in the United States.

I would tend to agree with the posters who feel that the OP may have blown this event out of proportion. If he was so concerned with these actions while in Turkey, why not call the local police?

What does posting this letter on a site like Fodor's do? Does it make people think differently about Clemson? Maybe...but I can tell you that it will certainly not change the preception of the thousands of living alumna of Clemson University.

This issue would have best been handled by sending the letter to the Univerity President along with the professor. The OP obviously felt the need to "toot" his own horn as the moral compass for the rest of the world. I'm sure that the OP has never done anything morally questionable over his lifetime.

Sorry for the somewhat bitter tone towards the end of the post, but I really don't like to see my Alma Mater bashed in this fashion.

Signed,

Proud member of the Clemson University class of 1991.



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Old May 29th, 2008, 06:19 AM
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It appears to me that Mike did approach the professor and it was not effective. He also seems to have informed the professor that he would be contacting the administrative staff at Clemson and the professor gave him his business card and then insulted Mike by returning his business card. Some of the lessons learned by these students on this trip were that the rules do not apply to them, they have a right to set their own rules for when they will see sites in foreign contries, they can be rude to others who point out their errors and they can get away with not paying if they just make sure to come at a time when they may not be caught sneaking in after hours. Hmmm, how many credits to they get for dishonesty, theft, rudeness and total indifference to the rules of other countries and lack of respect for the treasurs to be found around the world? I would not want my children learning such lessons while on a college sponsored trip, presumably funded by the parents, and I believe that all of the very enlightened and intelligent alumni that I am acquainted with from Clemson would feel the same.

I provided the information for the State Newspaper, which has statewide circulation including the Clemson area, after another poster mentioned the newpapers. This is not a USC/Gamecock paper, it is the most widely read newpaper in the area so that is the address that I provided. Will I be contacting the newspaper or the local news station? No. However, if others want to do so the information is now handy for them to do so and that is their right if they should so choose.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 06:28 AM
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Why don't you just shoot 'em?
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Old May 29th, 2008, 06:29 AM
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The professor may have been from Turkey (we don't know that - only the comment that his name was Turkish) - but he is on the Clemson faculty and on a trip such as this - represents Clemson.

Yes - things are done differently in different cultures.

MAYBE....and I mean MAYBE....if the professor and the guide had done what the OP suggested (leaving the admission cost and leaving the money with a nearby establishment) - then I could feel a little better about this. But - to the best of the OP's knowledge - they didn't do this.

If - as molker suggested - this sort of "thing" is common in small stores - then it should have been no problem and the professor and guide should have thought of it first.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 06:51 AM
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This response is for JDraper who obviously has a bone to pick with Clemson (may he/she was not accepted to Clemson when they applied for college).

I don't believe I saw anywhere in the OP's post where he indicated that anyone representing Clemson University was rude to him or his family.

Quite the opposite...the professor gave him his card, apparently spoke politely to him and it does not appear that any of the students were rude.

I wasn't there, but I also don't believe this was about theft. Yes, maybe they should have left the admission fee, but I'm quite sure that they didn't enter illegally just to save $1.60 per person.

As for rules or customs who are we to judge the Turkish people. If I were traveling in a foreign country with a guide (from that country) and he proposed that it was okay to do something that I ordinarily wouldn't do in my own country (based on customs), I would probably be inclined to follow the guide.

As for sending this to media outlets, why not include the Anderson, SC newspaper aliong with the Greenville News and all of the TV stations in the Upstate.

Contrary to you assertion about the State newspaper, it is in fact dominated by the University of South Carolina and the gamecocks. Having lived in the Upstate for a number of years, I can certainly tell you that The State is not the newspaper of choice. My guess is that The Greenville News and the Charleston Post & Courier both have larger circulations.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 07:23 AM
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I did not read all the opinions fully as I am travelling abroad naming Santorini....

I would like to Thank Mike fo being frank and warning the persons involved in a foreign country he was a tourist for couple of weeks....to protect a heritage which belongs to all of us not only to Turkish ministry of culture.

Opposite views I saw which some made sense but not relevant.

Yes thats true some rules in Turkey can be override slightly but not at all all the rules. Official offices are opening on time for example but passing on red if no traffic is a current practice as well.

Anyway: if a group is spesificaly also into archeology simple way is to warn areas of interest and authorities to man the places to be visited even after hours. Example: If you need to keep Goreme Open Ai museum for a special venue or visit prior notice and an extra payment is enough so is for Ephesus. We have this system and works perfectly. They even open some sites or museums not open to public for some reason or another.

Trespassing a site like this to my understanding is not correct whatever the reason is. RESPECT is important. Rest assured on my return to Cappadocia - home, I will report to the people in charge for these sites at ministry as well.

Othervise we would find right to enter places anytime we wish and break rules created for all, and be bad example for the rest and to younger generation.


Will give you 3 examples; In Mustafapasa - Sinasos Cappadocia there are some churches usually manned. If off season and you want to see them just go to information kiosk or knowck the door of major if they will not take you there in person you will get the keys to return later. This shows Turkish peoples trsut and also sympathy to the ones who are interested....

I have been to Antakya southeastern Turkey close to Syria, one of the most important mosaic museums of whole world is there awaiting to be explored. I was 10 min to late. There was a guard locked inside till opening the next day. ( or maybe he had the key but thats what he told me while I was bagging him to enter) I was so sorry and angry with myself that I spend time elswhere and not to make there on time. We were sopposed to leave in the evening. I suggested the party I was travelling with to stay one more day so we could vist the museum but next day was monday and genearlly museums are closed. Called someone I know back in Cappadocia and get name and number of the museum manager. Next day went there and did not even called but asked at the gate to speak to him. He was hesitating at first as they would do cleaning and stuff, he accepted our wish, offered a morning tea and gave us the time to visit this exceptional museum. Asking and planning helps......

In santorini went to Akrotiri last year, as I am interested personally with historical sites etc. Site is closed for some years now. I wanted to see something so badly. I could tresspass but there could be also dogs or other dangers I may not predict, besides as a Turkish I did not want to have problem with authorities no matter what the Greek people are alsways nice and kind in person. No one would take responsibility of any unwanted event could happened while getting in incognito to the site.

So we need to obey rules and ofcourse we can try to streech things if possible like asking extra flexibility etc but not take liberty and just doing it.

Happy travelling with respect to Nature, Culture, Environment and values.......

Murat in Santorini
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Old May 29th, 2008, 07:36 AM
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Thank you Murat! I was hoping you would see this and add your thoughts.

RESPECT!! To me that should be the motto for every traveler!
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Old May 29th, 2008, 07:48 AM
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I will address this to Clemson91.

No, I have no bone to pick with Clemson and if you will note that I did say that the Clemson alumni that I know are "enlightened and intelligent". That was not tongue in cheek, it was a true statement as that has been my expeirence with both Clemson and USC graudates. I assume you are also enlightened and intelligent as you are an alumni. There is a good natured rivalry between Clemson and USC that is all in good fun and if you take comments seriously then you are taking the rivalry too seriously. No, I was not turned down for admission to Clemson as I did not apply but did graduate with honors from a university in California and then went on to law school at USC in SC after moving here. Nuff said, Clemson = good, USC (both of them) = good.

As for the newspaper, I simply gave the info for the State as I believe (could be wrong as I don't spend a lot of time checking circulation figures and am not going to take the time to research it) that it is the most widely circulated paper in SC. I have no objection to any of the other newspapers but I am not familiar with them. Personally I think the State is a rag but most people that I know do read it so that is the info I provided. No big deal, as you can see from my earlier post I am not writing to them anyway but if others want to they can feel free.

Finally, I did not say anything about the professor being rude to Mike's family. I said he was rude to Mike by handing back the business card and saying he would not need it. I have had many people hand me business cards over the years that I knew I would never use. I simply say thank you and throw them away later rather than being rude enough to hand them back. I think that is rude, you don't. When those students are in the work force and they hand business cards back to others saying they won't need them and insult them, unintentionally or not, they could be losing important contacts later in life. As for the students themselves, the OP said in a later post:
<"Sorry to inform you that these young adults are well past being sent messages. They are sending their own messages, most of which were expressed to me in the form of personal attacks that I haven't even bothered to mention."> If these students were making personal comments then it would be rude in my opinion. I wasn't there so I don't know but that seems to be implied by the OP.

I disagree, this was partly about theft. It is theft if it is 1.60 or 160.00. The amount in question does not define whether or not it was theft, just the amount. Like the old joke says, we know what you (they) are we are now just haggling over the price. The fact that they knew there was an admission price and apparantly did not pay it would indicate that they were stealing this fee. Just because their guide said it was okay does not excuse the action, these are adults who were faced with a choice and they chose not to pay. In my view that is theft. I hold the professor responsible for this as he was in charge but he did teach the students that this behavior was okay.

Do I think this is a world event that should attract major media attention? No. Do I think it should be called to the attention of the university staff and board? Yes. These students are learning from their professor whether it be in the classroom or on an overseas trip. Their actions reflect the university and their country. Clearly the professor identified himself with Clemson or the OP would not have known where to address his letter. I believe the University should be informed if the professor and the students are acting in ways which reflect badly on the institution as a whole. I would believe the same thing if the students were from USC, Clemson or from the local technical college.
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Old May 29th, 2008, 08:28 AM
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Please, why dont jd and that buckley buttpuppet just mind their own business.
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