hey junglelord - just wanted to add what I would have before, if my post wasn't getting incredibly long!! Love your contributions so far (especially about the cricket) and your latest sort of bears out my "mature democracy thesis". We love to wind each other up, but in the end we can live with the woolly system of government we have cos it works well enough.

Just to clarity something the Cambe said. Which passport you take does not necessairly mean you are catholic or Protestant but a N.I. Citizen has a choice of an Irish or British passport but not both. Being catholic or protestant has nothing to do with being allowed to take either one.

cheers fuzzy, thats what I love about Britain. Being Indian settled in UK I can have a inside outside view on this subject. I had a lot of thought about this topic when I excepted the British nationality and wondered if I was now English, but was told wasnt hence the term British was invented to include everyone. The Queen and immigrants are British (i.e. being German decent and what not) and rest all are divided into English Scottish Welsh and Irish. I love the way Brits fall over each other ''officially'' to include everyone in society. Recently it was suggest that the Christmas shouldnt be called Xmas as it would offend not Christians, hilarious. By the way as India is in Commonwealth can I ask some British people for some of this common wealth, pass it on here boys, desperate need money for a deposit on rising house prices. How Droll....keep going guys, only 80 posts cant solve this problem of identity. Wish I was in USA then at least I would be a Indian American.

39 Steps:

There's not a shred of evidence more than a handful of (really rather odd) Scots want independence. Or that anyone elsewhere in the UK would care a bawbee were they to get it.

There have been endless opinion polls about this: if anything, such minor interest in real independence as once there was is in decline. But everyone's impression is that the Scots are getting bolshier about their differences.

Your monicker should explain this attachment to the Union. A novel by an English-educated Scot who chose to become a lawyer in the English system rather than the Scottish, briefly did a real job helping run South Afica and then became Governor-General (surrogate monarch) of an independent Canada. About how a former South African miner (later to join the British Army in a Scottish regiment) foils a deadly plot to undermine the country (Britain) Buchan cared for so much.

Buchan's (by today's standards really quite extreme)affection for Britain stems fom the same reason as most talented Scots'. A lad (or lass) o'pairts has a much bigger stage to play on in Britain (or whatever wider community we attach outselves to) than in Scotland alone.

I've met any number of sad Scottish losers (mostly in pubs or at any rate in liquor) who wanted independence. Among the sane and the competent, even those who claim the greatest irritation at how we patronise or ignore them merely want more autonomy and more tax handouts.

Siobhan:

"a N.I. Citizen has a choice of an Irish or British passport but not both"

Quite untrue. The right of the people of Northern Ireland to carry both citizenships (as many do) is specifically guaranteed in the Good Friday agreement.

Article 1 of a surprising short agreement: [THe UK and Irish governments] "recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland"

Hi L,

>Wish I was in USA then at least I would be a Indian American. <

Yes, but not an American Indian. :)

((I))

I'm at least a quarter Scottish, and wouldn't be bothered in the slightest if Scotland voted for independence. Mind you, they'd have to take Northern Ireland with them....

Patrick thats like our joke in India, Pakistan can have Kashmir only if they want Bihar free....(Bihar is a developing stat in India, one would love to get rid off)

And am told its not American Indian anymore (Poor Colombus took a wrong turn and made a hash) polite way to address is Native Americans.

Is it just me, or is this thread all messed up? Pieces of it seems to be all over the place . . .

Flanneruk - Thanks for the info but I still think they can only choose on Passport. I will have a root around. Its such a messy situation still these days.

I had an employee from the North working in Dublin and had to explain to my Belgian Boss that he had an Irish PPort as he was classifying him as UK and upset this particular individual. It's tough enough to get our heads arounbd it but how do you explain it to someone outside this sphere.

The fact that the English voted for the party that wanted Scottish and Welsh devolution shows that the majority supported it.

However, a Scottish doctor I know was very much against devolution calling it the "Braveheart vote".
He is worried that the Scottish NHS might lose its subsidy.

BTW, I seem to remember that part of the United States wanted devolution in the middle of the 19th century.
Does anyone know if they achieved it?

oldie - Are you talking about succession of the south, that leads to the Civil War?

Hi O,

>...part of the United States wanted devolution in the middle of the 19th century.
Does anyone know if they achieved it?<

It wasn't devolution, it was secession.
No, it wasn't successful.

However, we still have folks down here in the rural South that haven't given up the idea.

((I))

Flanneruk - thanks for the colorful response! Your British humor puts a smile on my face :-)

This thread and our upcoming trip to Britain/Ireland motivated me to do some more research. I found a lot more than just "a shred of evidence" that a lot of Scots do want independence. Just google "Scottish Independence" and you can read for hours and hours on this subject. Same thing with "Irish Independence".

It's not my fight - I'm just an ignorant Yank...but I do like to immerse myself in the history and culture of my travel destinations and I find this pattern of English colonization and subjugation of peoples, from Oliver Cromwell, the potato famine the Easter Rising etc. to be quite disturbing and not something the English should be very proud of. At least that's the view from this side of the Atlantic.

Well, to be fair, our American forebears <u>did</u> come here and brush aside the indigenous peoples fairly brutally. The campaign to deprive the plains indians of the buffalo was nothing short of calculated genocide.

But I don't judge countries, only individuals. If you behave yourself and don't try to invade <i>me</i>, we'll get along fine - regardless of what your great...great grandfather did.

By the way, for background on the history of the UK, I can't recommend anything more highly than Simon Schama's <b>History of Britain</b> (available on DVD from Netflix and Blockbuster).

If a majority of Scots wanted independence, them I'm sure that the English would wish them well.
Again, if a majority of Northern Irish voted to join the Republic then that would be fine. Let's face it, it costs the British taxpayer a lot of money to police the place.

Picture this. A small country in England's &quot;backyard&quot; with an alliance to England's greatest enemy.
Ring any bells with Americans?

BTW, if you google &quot;Hawaiian independence&quot; you'll get a hit or two.

The whole question of Scottish independence has been blurred by the growing influence of the EU and tandem (or - what? - troika?) governance as the dominant European model. Elected members of the European Parliament, elected members of the UK Parliament, elected members of the Scottish Parliament, plus sundry local and regional government types - it's getting positively American in terms of layers on layers...

It's the definition of &quot;independence&quot; that's changing. Scotland independent of what? The crown? Some feel that would be a necessity for Scottish &quot;independence.&quot; Others don't. Independence from Westminster? Brussels? As with most plural societies, Scotland will give you many, many different answers to those mega-questions.

When the SNP was feeling its oats in the 1970s, fueled by the vision of Scottish oil wealth flowing into English pockets, &quot;independence&quot; meant something quite different to many Scots than it might today.

My dear 39,

&gt;I find this pattern of English colonization and subjugation of peoples,... not something the English should be very proud of.&lt;

When one is a pot, one should be careful when speaking to kettles.

((I))
A fellow Yank

Thank you Robespierre, Flanneruk, Oldie and Ira for your thoughtful responses. Pardon me - no offense intended. Just to clarify, we love traveling in England and will be visiting again this summer. Hopefully, they'll still let us in. :-)

39steps - you should be careful where you throw your &quot;holier than thou&quot; ripostes. Ira is right - consider yourself a very uninformed kettle!!

In support of my post I cite American involvement in Chile (did or did not the CIA have an involvement in the assassination of Allende?), Grenada, Nicaragua.

And what exactly is the wonderful USA up to in Iraq?????

Cheers,
A Pot.