NancyD9393

OOPS - that should say "back to our rental place in FLORENCE", not Venice. We loved Venice. Hoped to go back. probably won't be back to Italy anytime soon.

Jim_Tardio

This link should help:

http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic...ions_italy.htm

Lifeman

This is why I wouldn't pay this sort of ticket: the local authorities in these cities know that they won't catch the locals because they know where the zones are. The local authorities know that they will catch tourists and they intend to do so.

Thjey then rely on the holier than thou people to pay these tickets and persuade others that they are somehow a better person if they pay it too. Not so. You have been suckered by a greedy local authority. If you'd exceeded the speed limit intentionally or done anything intentionally, then you should pay if you get caught. Hold up your hands and pay with a grimace.

These badly signed zones with minimal warning of where they are are there to catch you -- nothing more. So you put a wheel in the wrong area by twenty yards, so what? Who died or put anyone at risk?

Most people don't pay these, even those on a high horse who say that they do.

kybourbon

>>>What a fabulous revenue stream for the Italians. This was our first trip to Italy. Nowhere else we've traveled have we had "gifts" like these flowing in for months afterwards.<<<

It's not a "fabulous revenue stream", but a way to control traffic in historic cities with tiny streets. Even tour buses need special permits to enter Florence to keep it from being gridlocked all the time. Italy is not the only country that limits traffic in certain areas.

>>>the local authorities in these cities know that they won't catch the locals because they know where the zones are.<<<
The locals are allowed to drive in the zones.

Kate

kybourbon, I agree with you. Italy has a huge responsibility to protect the fabric of ancient towns and cities that just aren't set up to cope with modern traffic and the huge influx of tourists. You can criticise their signage, although it isn't THAT hard to spot and do you really want ancient monuments plastered with huge traffic signs? I don't.

NancyD9393

DanaAndrea - - our traveling companions (in the car behind us, who got lost with us) received one of these the other day too. They called the phone number on the citation and spoke with someone, and they dropped the charges. We will do this today, and I encourage you to do the same ! I am not an "ugly American" tourist who expects to take my car everywhere in Europe. I'd personally like to live over there (but in Istria) and not own a car at all, but we have had a series of "interesting" traffic infractions and rental car "fines" since our return. One fine clearly occurred an hour after we dropped the rental car, and we have the paperwork to prove it (the rental company in Florence moved the rental car into the street and left it there for a few hours after we took it back) and thankfully, we made the purchase with American Express, and they looked at our paperwork and said "let us take care of this - - this happens all the time in Italy". Another was a "toll booth infraction" with no addt'l explanation, and it was 23 Euro. We paid it. So, my upset over this is the many little surprises that keep arriving in the mail from Italy, 6 months after we are home. So, our frustration is cumulative. We are paying these things, because if we ever did go back, we might end up sharing a cell with Amanda Knox. Grrrrr...... We've been to Europe several times, and so far Italy is the only country who has mailed us multiple souvenirs. Will read up to see where else we should be doing tons more homework in advance.

kybourbon

The rental car is not charging "fines". When you contracted with the rental car you signed an agreement. That agreement included a fee for having to provide data to the police if you broke traffic laws. It's not the rental car company or Italy's fault that you chose to break the laws and ignore traffic signs (the ZTL's are signed). Italy would not mail multiple tickets if you hadn't violated the traffic laws multiple times. People that don't break the laws, don't get tickets. You may or may not have one out if one ticket was after the car was turned in. I'm wondering if you are looking at the correct time though. Yes, it takes awhile for the processing of license plate numbers that the cameras snap, contacting the rental car company, waiting for their investigation, and getting the tickets mailed. Italy isn't known for excellence in paper work processing.

pavot

I think we're all entitled to our opinions on this. And on where we want to spend our travel dollars/pounds/euros.

You can say this type of fine is a valid way to safeguard precious cultural resources. You can say this is a cheap and nasty way for local Italian governments to fill their coffers with the help of unsuspecting outsiders. I'm somewhere in between on this issue. If Florentine authorities want to limit traffic, I would prefer they do a more thorough job of pedestrianizing the city (and include smelly, noisy motorbikes in the ban in the process) and of marking the zone more clearly. But nobody asked me.

We questioned our fine, had it explained -- boy, nobody offered to dismiss it though! -- and paid what was charged.

I've been to Italy several times, and driven in Florence without a problem until now. There is a lot more of Europe to explore, and as much as I love Italy and things Italian, yup, this incident diminished my interest in going back for a while.

So Florence has gotten the 110 euro they asked for. And France will get the next $5000.

JustineA

This happened to friends of ours recently. You are not alone. It is so easy to get lost in the maze of streets in these towns. The law should be in reverse; the locals should be fined and the tourists shouldn't be. It's obvious that the majority of them are only there once and don't know their way around whereas the locals do know where they are and will drive through those areas frequently--hence polluting daily.
In some countries they have those barriers that go up and down with either a key or a remote code that allow only those permitted to drive through.

Why give a visitor a bad feeling so that they don't want to return unless you don't want them to? You would think that the car rental companies would want to protect their business but it wouldn't surprise me if they get a kick back in Italy.

Why have a big advertising campaign to get tourists to come to your country and then the municipalities and often the people don't really want you there? I have never felt that way in France but I have felt that way in Italy, many times. Not that the Italians aren't beautiful and charming, but there was an undercurrent of displeasure in some places. I don't need it. Their legal system frightens me and I don't feel safe there anymore. I'm glad that I have seen what I have seen of Italy but I doubt I will go back any time soon and I'm sure they could care less.

NancyD9393

Justine - this was our first trip to Italy, and we did not find the Italians to be friendly at all. We were very surprised. Especially because we have been to Croatia 3 times in the past 4 years, and the Croatians are SO tourist-friendly. On this trip, we were with another couple who have been to Italy 3 times, and it was their first trip to Croatia, and their first comment, 15 minutes into the country was "oh my god, everybody is SO friendly here" The change was extremely obvious. I think it's the difference between a country that is very, very popular and tourists will always come (Italy) vs a country working to build/establish it's tourism (Croatia). And yes, their legal system is scary. While my "share a cell with Amanda Knox" comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, it was somewhat not.....

kybourbon

>>>The law should be in reverse; the locals should be fined and the tourists shouldn't be
Why give a visitor a bad feeling so that they don't want to return unless you don't want them to? You would think that the car rental companies would want to protect their business but it wouldn't surprise me if they get a kick back in Italy.<<<

Do you really think only Italy gives tickets to tourists? If someone from another country is driving in the US, they will get ticketed for breaking traffic laws. The difference is you usually are stopped by police immediately, not caught on camera and receive the ticket later. There are some cities in the US with traffic cameras and yes, they contact the rental companies too and get your info so it's not just rentals in Italy charging this service.

In the US, there are many cities that don't allow parking on streets unless you have a resident permit. Your car gets towed and it doesn't matter what country you are from.

>>>their legal system is scary<<<
What do you know about the French and Croatian legal systems? It's possible they are similar to Italy or worse.

>>>If Florentine authorities want to limit traffic, I would prefer they do a more thorough job of pedestrianizing the city (and include smelly, noisy motorbikes in the ban in the process) and of marking the zone more clearly.<<<

Did you learn all the Italian road signs before you rented a car? If not, it's possible the sign was there, but you didn't know how to read it. Should a tourist in the US, that doesn't speak English, be allowed to ignore all the traffic signs and not get tickets? What if they cause a wreck as a result or kill someone? Should they get off because they are a tourist? I think it's reasonable a person driving a car should be able to read the road signs or they become a danger to everyone.
http://www.slowtrav.com/photos/showg...cat=654&page=3
http://www.slowtrav.com/photos/showg...cat=654&page=4
http://www.slowtrav.com/photos/showg...cat=654&page=5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Italy

Jean

It would never occur to me not to pay a traffic fine in another country. We've had to pay fines in the U.S. for what were obviously tourist/non-local traps. My husband got a ticket last year on a back road in Idaho for going 10 mph over the speed limit in a "construction zone." It was before 6:00 a.m., there was no visible road work in progress anywhere, and the only other vehicle on the road was the cop car.

Jim_Tardio

Rental cars are routinely targeted all over the world. Their license plates, along with other stickers and decals, indicate that they are rentals. Tourists are singled out to pay the bulk of these fines.

I got a speeding ticket in Oregon while driving a rental car...I was going 7 miles above the speed limit. People towing boats and trailers were routinely passing me at the time I was pulled over.

It's the law, but whoever said that the law was fair or ethical.


According to my Italian relatives, the best thing to do regarding the Florence ticket is to dispute it...legally throwing it back to them.

I love Italy, have lots of family there. But they'll be the first to tell you that the Italians don't need a gun to rob you.

Tulips

I think this discussion is rather ridiculous. You incur a traffic fine in a city, you pay for it. Ignorance is no excuse. We had a parking fine in Ft Lauderdale, with a rental car. It was in the evening, there were hardly any cars, we did not realise we had to pay to park there at that time and did not notice a sign. Our fault, we paid the fine. We did not whine about how the police in Florida targeted innocent tourists.

Most European cities are not made for heavy car traffic. They try to limit cars coming into the center of town. That there is an exception for locals who actually live there, is absolutely normal.
Here in Belgium, cars coming from the right have priority, unless otherwise indicated. Many foreigners are not aware of this; does that mean that they should be let off when they cause an accident, or incur a fine?

And not returning to a country because you received a ticket for a traffic violation? That is just absurd.

JustineA

Kybourbon;
Thank you for that fascinating lesson on our cultural differences!
You said nothing that I didn't know already.

Jim_Tardio

Here's an entire blog on the subject:

http://www.blogfromitaly.com/speeding-fines-in-italy/

Christina

Lots of tourists get traffic tickets in the city where I live if they break the law. Why shouldn't they, they aren't exempt. Yes, they give them to all illegally parked cars, or cars driving in areas they should not (this is not just some weird thing Florence made up, lots of cities have restricted zones or driving or parking at certain times or altogether). They give them to foreigners where I live, also.

I don't understand why people think they should be allowed to drive wherever they want and violate laws because they are tourists. I've seen those ZTL signs, they aren't that small. Don't you think you have some responsibility to obey the laws when driving in a foreign country, and respect the property of the area? People wonder why residents don't like tourists, this is one reason why. I don't like them where I live because they break a lot of traffic laws and drive terribly, also.

The police and ticket writers where I live do not only write tickets for tourists, they have no reason to do that. First, cameras can't target anyone, now can they? If it's a camera fine (and there are plenty of those where I live), it is given to everyone. If it's parking fines, they give them to every car violating the law, they don't only give them to tourists.

I know people want to justify not paying fines because somehow they think it's okay if they are a tourist, but I don't really understand that attitude. I'm a good driver, but have paid every ticket I've ever gotten by camera as I was guilty. I don't understand how anyone can logically claim tourists are targeted when it is a fine from a camera. Once on this board, some people where whining about getting a parking ticket in my city (on the Wash DC) board because they were a tourist and made similar silly remarks about how the print on the meter was too small for them to read (giving hours), and then whined because there wasn't a parking sign right next to their car with the regulations. I forget how the two went together, but you shouldn't be allowed to have a license to drive if you don't know that parking regulations are posted periodically on signs and you have to look at the ones posted in the block where you are. And if you can't see well enough to read, you shouldn't be driving.

Jim_Tardio

Here's a quote from the Los Angeles Examiner...

<i>"Making motorists visiting pay is nearly epidemic in Italy. According to The Florentine newspaper, Florence, Italy (Firenze) issued about 860,000 traffic citations in 2008. Over half–some 460,00–were issued for violations of the city's limited traffic zones. All told, the Florentine city government reaped €52,000,000 in traffic fines. That in a city of under 400,000 people."</i>

So this is clearly big business in Florence.

altamiro

>So this is clearly big business in Florence.

Correct.
And the recipients of 99% of these fines are suburb residents who drive into the city although they shouldn't. Which the paper conveniently neglects to mention.

But no, it's all about tourists and their precious freedom to drive everywhere.

Jean

Here is yet another website with lots of info about traffic tickets in Italy and how to avoid getting them.

http://www.bella-toscana.com/traffic...ions_italy.htm

Note that as of April 2010 there is new and more evident signage at the camera-equipped entries to the ZTL in Florence. Signs are in both Italian and English and include red lights when the ZTL is in effect. No excuses now....