I'm I crazy?
Feb 2nd, 2008, 09:37 AM
#21
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Before you do this I would try to determine/clarify everyone's expectations.
Assuming they;re high school seniors they are free agents and you are not accepting any responsibility for them - other than travel arrangements. (Some parents may be expecting you to act in loco parentis - and to do that you would need a couple of more adults at least - and also your head examined.)
In europe these kids are adults and can come/go, drink/not and do essentially anything they want at all hours. Your first job is to get that across to whoever will be paying for the trips. I would also have an attorney draw up a simple document for signature by each kid (or parent if under 18) freeing you of any responsibility for their actions. (The same way colleges do for students under 18 - so they can't be sued for students run amok.)
First, you need to put together a basic itinerary. then contact group sales at the airlines that go to the first/last cities - and see if they will offer a discount.
As for hotels - I think you will have trouble getting a lot of hotels to take a group like that - never mind give you a discount. (They're worried about parties and damages.) You might to consider hostels instead - since many B&Bs/pensions will be too small for your group.
You could contact local travel agents - but since I assume you want to travel budget - you need to be prepared to pay them fees for everything they do for you (budget hotels don;t pay commissions to travel agents the way upscale hotels do).
Assuming they;re high school seniors they are free agents and you are not accepting any responsibility for them - other than travel arrangements. (Some parents may be expecting you to act in loco parentis - and to do that you would need a couple of more adults at least - and also your head examined.)
In europe these kids are adults and can come/go, drink/not and do essentially anything they want at all hours. Your first job is to get that across to whoever will be paying for the trips. I would also have an attorney draw up a simple document for signature by each kid (or parent if under 18) freeing you of any responsibility for their actions. (The same way colleges do for students under 18 - so they can't be sued for students run amok.)
First, you need to put together a basic itinerary. then contact group sales at the airlines that go to the first/last cities - and see if they will offer a discount.
As for hotels - I think you will have trouble getting a lot of hotels to take a group like that - never mind give you a discount. (They're worried about parties and damages.) You might to consider hostels instead - since many B&Bs/pensions will be too small for your group.
You could contact local travel agents - but since I assume you want to travel budget - you need to be prepared to pay them fees for everything they do for you (budget hotels don;t pay commissions to travel agents the way upscale hotels do).
Feb 2nd, 2008, 10:08 AM
#22
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I would assume that a mixed group of over 18 and under 18 year olds is not much fun.
The over 18yo can do whatever they want (No US "in loco parentis" document lets you tell an 18yo in Italy what to do). They are adults like you. Love it or hate it, it's the law.
The under 18yo are your responsibility if you have the correct papers from their parents.
But: The first group goes out partying all night (or not), while you play Scrabble with the "kids"? I doubt that this will be the source of lots a fun, but more the source of many discussions.. why can they do what we can't do.. and so on.
By the way, drinking age is 16 for beer and wine, so you should face that issue, especially if more puritan-minded parents expect you to keep their kids acting like saints.
Age of consent for sex is 14 in Italy, unless Wikipedia errs on that item. Instead of making up a bunch of rules, better make sure that your HS Seniors know how to say "condom" in Italian, and know where to get them.
Maybe the above judgements will scare or even scare off half of the parents, but I think it's better to face the different aspects of culture and law before you start buying tickets, than do end up in desperate handwringing later.
The over 18yo can do whatever they want (No US "in loco parentis" document lets you tell an 18yo in Italy what to do). They are adults like you. Love it or hate it, it's the law.
The under 18yo are your responsibility if you have the correct papers from their parents.
But: The first group goes out partying all night (or not), while you play Scrabble with the "kids"? I doubt that this will be the source of lots a fun, but more the source of many discussions.. why can they do what we can't do.. and so on.
By the way, drinking age is 16 for beer and wine, so you should face that issue, especially if more puritan-minded parents expect you to keep their kids acting like saints.
Age of consent for sex is 14 in Italy, unless Wikipedia errs on that item. Instead of making up a bunch of rules, better make sure that your HS Seniors know how to say "condom" in Italian, and know where to get them.
Maybe the above judgements will scare or even scare off half of the parents, but I think it's better to face the different aspects of culture and law before you start buying tickets, than do end up in desperate handwringing later.
Feb 2nd, 2008, 10:39 AM
#24
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janisj, I accept there is a difference between US and European kids, but we live in a semi rural area, the kids here don't use buses or metros - they use bikes. And they were considerably younger - 14 and 15 year olds. I assume the ones Danny is talking about are 17 - 18 years old, so very much young adults, albeit rather naieve ones with not much experience of the wider world.
Danny take the advice given here - find a company that organises this sort of thing. Find out how much it will cost, how many adults they recommend accompany the group. Don't commit to anything until everyone involved agrees to it, and pays a sizeable deposit. Hold a cheese and wine evening (or whatever - a social based event in any case) for the parents, tell them your plans (once you have contacted a tour company), and answer their questions as best you can. Try and get a couple of the teacher form the scholl to go with you - hte ids will probably have more respect for them, and get the scholl to tie the trip into lessons a bit, so it is not seen purely as a jolly.
Danny take the advice given here - find a company that organises this sort of thing. Find out how much it will cost, how many adults they recommend accompany the group. Don't commit to anything until everyone involved agrees to it, and pays a sizeable deposit. Hold a cheese and wine evening (or whatever - a social based event in any case) for the parents, tell them your plans (once you have contacted a tour company), and answer their questions as best you can. Try and get a couple of the teacher form the scholl to go with you - hte ids will probably have more respect for them, and get the scholl to tie the trip into lessons a bit, so it is not seen purely as a jolly.
Feb 2nd, 2008, 10:50 AM
#25
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One thing I forgot:
I suspect that at least one of parents/ teachers going with that group has at least a fair command of Italian. If things go sour, I would want to be able to communicate rather than doing some sign language with some Italian carabinieri. (Yes, I know that also the police in Italy has English speaking officers.)
From my experience, many schools in Europe take out-of-country trips to France, England, or Spain - but usually the language classes, respectively -- and they are usually joined by at least one of their teachers who teach that language.
I suspect that at least one of parents/ teachers going with that group has at least a fair command of Italian. If things go sour, I would want to be able to communicate rather than doing some sign language with some Italian carabinieri. (Yes, I know that also the police in Italy has English speaking officers.)
From my experience, many schools in Europe take out-of-country trips to France, England, or Spain - but usually the language classes, respectively -- and they are usually joined by at least one of their teachers who teach that language.
Feb 2nd, 2008, 12:34 PM
#26
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"Hold a cheese and wine evening (or whatever - a social based event in any case) for the parents, tell them your plans (once you have contacted a tour company), and answer their questions as best you can."
More excellent advice, though you may have already thought of that.
My nephew went on a high school junior trip with their track coach (who is also a teacher, and a well-known dragon.) Everyone going and their parents had to sign some document that essentially said that the coach made the rules, explained the rules, and could unilaterally enforce the rules. That included sending miscreants home at parent's expense, that the group wouldn't wait if a kid missed a train, that
any kid caught in a room assigned to someone of the opposite sex would be sent home immediately, etc.
All "fraternization" among the group kids had to be in lobbies, public rooms, dining areas, etc.
Also, kids were grouped into subgroups of four, a variation on the buddy system. They were responsible within their subgroup of making sure that everyone was on time, that everyone was accounted for, and that no one could go off on their own, even to the bathroom, without the rest of the group knowing where they went and when they'd be back. If one kid wanted pizza for dinner, the other three had to also go for pizza for dinner. In one case a subgroup did miss a train (because one of them overslept) but at least they were all together. They caught the next train, they knew what the next destination and hotel was, and everyone was back together within 4 hours.
Everyone having cell phones was a tremendous advantage also.
More excellent advice, though you may have already thought of that.
My nephew went on a high school junior trip with their track coach (who is also a teacher, and a well-known dragon.) Everyone going and their parents had to sign some document that essentially said that the coach made the rules, explained the rules, and could unilaterally enforce the rules. That included sending miscreants home at parent's expense, that the group wouldn't wait if a kid missed a train, that
any kid caught in a room assigned to someone of the opposite sex would be sent home immediately, etc.
All "fraternization" among the group kids had to be in lobbies, public rooms, dining areas, etc.
Also, kids were grouped into subgroups of four, a variation on the buddy system. They were responsible within their subgroup of making sure that everyone was on time, that everyone was accounted for, and that no one could go off on their own, even to the bathroom, without the rest of the group knowing where they went and when they'd be back. If one kid wanted pizza for dinner, the other three had to also go for pizza for dinner. In one case a subgroup did miss a train (because one of them overslept) but at least they were all together. They caught the next train, they knew what the next destination and hotel was, and everyone was back together within 4 hours.
Everyone having cell phones was a tremendous advantage also.
Feb 2nd, 2008, 12:57 PM
#27
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WOW.. I'm just glad that I did my school trips on the other side of the pond ;-)
But seriously: All this good advice overlooks the fact that in Italy, no teacher, no coach, no parent can tell an 18yo adult what he or she has to do or must not do. They can't "send them home", or "put them on the next flight", or tell them when to leave the hotel or when to come home. Their level of possible intervention is zero.
Also this obsession with 17 and 18 year olds having sex, or rather: how to avoid it, is really hard to comprehend. (And I, being almost 40, usually consider myself rather old-fashioned.)
But seriously: All this good advice overlooks the fact that in Italy, no teacher, no coach, no parent can tell an 18yo adult what he or she has to do or must not do. They can't "send them home", or "put them on the next flight", or tell them when to leave the hotel or when to come home. Their level of possible intervention is zero.
Also this obsession with 17 and 18 year olds having sex, or rather: how to avoid it, is really hard to comprehend. (And I, being almost 40, usually consider myself rather old-fashioned.)
Feb 2nd, 2008, 01:09 PM
#28
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>any kid caught in a room assigned to someone of the opposite sex would be sent home immediately,...
What about the assignee)s) with whom the kid was caught?
Sounds like a double standard to me.
..................................
Hi C,
No one cares if the kids engage in drinking, drugs, sex, and rock and roll.
The problem is that D will be responsible for anyone under 18, and a lawyer would probably argue those over 18 as well,
We are pointing out the problems he might face if a kid gets into trouble and the parents decide to sue him.
Even if he wins the lawsuits, they are very expensive.
What about the assignee)s) with whom the kid was caught?
Sounds like a double standard to me.
..................................
Hi C,
No one cares if the kids engage in drinking, drugs, sex, and rock and roll.
The problem is that D will be responsible for anyone under 18, and a lawyer would probably argue those over 18 as well,
We are pointing out the problems he might face if a kid gets into trouble and the parents decide to sue him.
Even if he wins the lawsuits, they are very expensive.
Feb 2nd, 2008, 01:58 PM
#29
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ira..
I understand your concerns, but it is futile to plan for measures to intervene with the possible actions of an adult in Europe. It reminds me of other threads where concerned parents asked what they could do that their 16yo kids would not be served beer or wine when attending a language course on their own in Italy or France.
Most of the advices or suggestions from American posters sound a bit as if they were looking for a loop hole to take their legal and moral standards and laws with them. I do not see any lawful foundation for this, though.
As the organizer of such a trip, I would make it very clear to the parents (of the 18yo) that their kids will be in a legal environment that will be different from the one in the US. I'd much rather face the parents and students with the facts than with wishful thinking.
Even if the chaperones faced legal problems in the US for letting an 18yo student go to the bars at midnight and get totally hammered there, they would face criminal prosecution in Italy if they tried to keep him from going - if the student pressed charges. I will admit that this is a rather theoretical case (I hope).
That's why I would find it rather complicated if I was responsible for a group of students with mixed ages, some of them being adolescents, and the others being adults. I don't know if there are any legal precautions a chaperone can take so he or her she won't face legal problems for something which is not lawful in the US but in Europe.
I understand your concerns, but it is futile to plan for measures to intervene with the possible actions of an adult in Europe. It reminds me of other threads where concerned parents asked what they could do that their 16yo kids would not be served beer or wine when attending a language course on their own in Italy or France.
Most of the advices or suggestions from American posters sound a bit as if they were looking for a loop hole to take their legal and moral standards and laws with them. I do not see any lawful foundation for this, though.
As the organizer of such a trip, I would make it very clear to the parents (of the 18yo) that their kids will be in a legal environment that will be different from the one in the US. I'd much rather face the parents and students with the facts than with wishful thinking.
Even if the chaperones faced legal problems in the US for letting an 18yo student go to the bars at midnight and get totally hammered there, they would face criminal prosecution in Italy if they tried to keep him from going - if the student pressed charges. I will admit that this is a rather theoretical case (I hope).
That's why I would find it rather complicated if I was responsible for a group of students with mixed ages, some of them being adolescents, and the others being adults. I don't know if there are any legal precautions a chaperone can take so he or her she won't face legal problems for something which is not lawful in the US but in Europe.
Feb 2nd, 2008, 02:01 PM
#30
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This is a little too mysterious as to who did this asking and what the heck this is all about. If this is a school-sponsored trip, some issues need to be worked out legally and for insurance reasons. Can you imagine someone just deciding to take 15 kids to Europe without any idea with their legal liability will be if something goes wrong and they get sued? And I mean what if someone really serious goes wrong, not just a bad hotel, etc. (like legally or medically or a kid even dies or gets seriously injured).
I think those student companies that work with you on this are a good idea, but I know airlines have some special deals where you get group discounts, you just have to ask the airlines about that.
I find the idea that if a kid does something wrong or against the rules they get sent home immediately perhaps a good idea, but I don't see how that works. Last-minute air fares are extremely expensive, who lays out the money for that? YOu can't force parents to wire you money to pay perhaps thousands of dollars to send their kid home because you decided you didn't like what they were doing. Maybe the parents had to agree legally that they would reimburse someone for that airfare? Still, who lays it out to the airline?
I think those student companies that work with you on this are a good idea, but I know airlines have some special deals where you get group discounts, you just have to ask the airlines about that.
I find the idea that if a kid does something wrong or against the rules they get sent home immediately perhaps a good idea, but I don't see how that works. Last-minute air fares are extremely expensive, who lays out the money for that? YOu can't force parents to wire you money to pay perhaps thousands of dollars to send their kid home because you decided you didn't like what they were doing. Maybe the parents had to agree legally that they would reimburse someone for that airfare? Still, who lays it out to the airline?
Feb 2nd, 2008, 02:06 PM
#31
Cowboy1968: I know, you go to the planning meeting Danny3643 will have w/ the parents and help him out. I can hear it now - "<i>OK folks - your kids will be able to get stinking drunk every night and Danny won't be able to do a darn thing to stop it. Oh - and be sure everyone has their pills and condoms since the kids will be shagging every night</i>" 
Yeah, that'll do it . . . . .
Yeah, that'll do it . . . . .
Feb 2nd, 2008, 02:16 PM
#33
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I will add a few extra issues:
1. Make sure you have a copy of everyone's passport kept separately from the originals (which should all be kept together so as to avoid loss).
2. Set a limit for spending money. Have a leader hold spending money if possible and give out some each day.
3. Make sure everyone knows not to mess around with any illegal drugs.
4. I would avoid Amsterdam - too tempting for some!
5. Have a full itinery planned. Tired teenagers are less likely to get into trouble.
6. Provide lectures / info. on each place before you go.
Good luck!
1. Make sure you have a copy of everyone's passport kept separately from the originals (which should all be kept together so as to avoid loss).
2. Set a limit for spending money. Have a leader hold spending money if possible and give out some each day.
3. Make sure everyone knows not to mess around with any illegal drugs.
4. I would avoid Amsterdam - too tempting for some!
5. Have a full itinery planned. Tired teenagers are less likely to get into trouble.
6. Provide lectures / info. on each place before you go.
Good luck!
Feb 2nd, 2008, 02:20 PM
#34
Christina - When using student tour companies parents sign a contract agreeing to their children being sent home at their expense. The student tour company has their credit card info for payments and can charge the ticket if need be. I really don't see how an individual taking a group if kids could do the same thing.
Feb 2nd, 2008, 02:28 PM
#35
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Cowboy, the legal issues are civil not criminal and they revolve around the fact that the OP will taking a large degree of responsibility for the safety and well being of the teenagers for the duration of the trip. Whether the kids are 18 or not is largely irrelevent.
Frankly, I wouldn't touch this with a ten-foot pole. Either do it through a recognized, professional organization that specializes in such trips, or don't do it at all.
Frankly, I wouldn't touch this with a ten-foot pole. Either do it through a recognized, professional organization that specializes in such trips, or don't do it at all.
Feb 2nd, 2008, 02:40 PM
#36
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I too would go with one of the travel companies. I can share horror stories.
We are experienced travelers and have taken friends of my kids abroad. No groups--one friend per kid with two parents. Even then we did major indemnification paperwork. This worked well. No bad story there.
What didn't work: Took eight kids (with indemnification) to nice place in US. Had meeting at house with all expectations, rules. Had kids and parents sign contract that they understood all the rules. As soon as they landed, four of the kids disobeyed all of them.
Friends' experiences: Three teacher buddies of mine, world travellers all, took 10 kids on tour to England. Had meeting with parents explaining drinking age, etc. Kids went out drinking in England. One teacher showed up to get them out of pub. Kid took picture. Parent found it later and submitted it to principal.
Result? All teachers fired.
Parent contacted me. Teachers in school no longer willing to take any kids abroad. She decided she will do it. My advice?
There are companies that do this. Use them. And make sure you are totally off the hook legally!!!!
We are experienced travelers and have taken friends of my kids abroad. No groups--one friend per kid with two parents. Even then we did major indemnification paperwork. This worked well. No bad story there.
What didn't work: Took eight kids (with indemnification) to nice place in US. Had meeting at house with all expectations, rules. Had kids and parents sign contract that they understood all the rules. As soon as they landed, four of the kids disobeyed all of them.
Friends' experiences: Three teacher buddies of mine, world travellers all, took 10 kids on tour to England. Had meeting with parents explaining drinking age, etc. Kids went out drinking in England. One teacher showed up to get them out of pub. Kid took picture. Parent found it later and submitted it to principal.
Result? All teachers fired.
Parent contacted me. Teachers in school no longer willing to take any kids abroad. She decided she will do it. My advice?
There are companies that do this. Use them. And make sure you are totally off the hook legally!!!!
Feb 2nd, 2008, 03:48 PM
#38
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ira, I get your point and your humor, but it's not a double standard. If I'm a student in my own room, I'm where I'm supposed to be. If a male person comes to my room during this trip, he's where he's not supposed to be.
Intentions or morality have nothing to do with it.
Any church, school, or youth group has an attorney in-house or on retainer who can draft the necessary releases from liability.
This is how student groups do indeed get to travel these days.
And since it is factual that students can be sent home (or, at least, driven to an airport and escorted to the jetway) and are personally responsible if they oversleep and miss the train, these issues must be legally covered somehow.
The school I referred to is a reputable private school in a major American city, and they've been sponsoring trips for years, including the track team's annualjunior trip to Europe. Kids have indeed been sent home from time to time, and some have missed their trains in Europe. And the leaders did not stay with the kids the whole time, the kids were free to go out to dinner on their own, or any where else they may choose to go. However, if the school's trip rules were violated (which included no drinking of alcoholic beverages) then the kid was sent home. It's not a European law, it's the school's trip rule. Same for the visiting of others' hotel rooms--it's a violation of the trip agreement, not a matter of morality or law. If those kids go home and drink or engage in anything at all, that's their own business. On the trip, it's the trip leaders' business.
Am I saying that no kid on a trip gets around the rules?--of course I wouldn't say that, no one who knows teenagesrs would say that. I just know that "violators have been prosecuted" when found out.
Intentions or morality have nothing to do with it.
Any church, school, or youth group has an attorney in-house or on retainer who can draft the necessary releases from liability.
This is how student groups do indeed get to travel these days.
And since it is factual that students can be sent home (or, at least, driven to an airport and escorted to the jetway) and are personally responsible if they oversleep and miss the train, these issues must be legally covered somehow.
The school I referred to is a reputable private school in a major American city, and they've been sponsoring trips for years, including the track team's annualjunior trip to Europe. Kids have indeed been sent home from time to time, and some have missed their trains in Europe. And the leaders did not stay with the kids the whole time, the kids were free to go out to dinner on their own, or any where else they may choose to go. However, if the school's trip rules were violated (which included no drinking of alcoholic beverages) then the kid was sent home. It's not a European law, it's the school's trip rule. Same for the visiting of others' hotel rooms--it's a violation of the trip agreement, not a matter of morality or law. If those kids go home and drink or engage in anything at all, that's their own business. On the trip, it's the trip leaders' business.
Am I saying that no kid on a trip gets around the rules?--of course I wouldn't say that, no one who knows teenagesrs would say that. I just know that "violators have been prosecuted" when found out.
Feb 2nd, 2008, 03:54 PM
#40
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Danny
Contrary to some posters who have responded, I think you are a wonderful fellow who is willing to forego some of your personal vacation time (probably) to offer the youth in your school a chance to open their eyes about the world. I think some posters on Fodors forget there must be a first time to travel ... and an organized student tour can be the best way to pique an interest that can last a lifetime.
I teach at a high school and have organized and chaperoned student trips to Europe and Egypt. We leave in 31 days for France and Spain - 36 students, 4 chaperones, 15 days.
Our school is also located in a rural area. I can relate to some of your worries.
You must be careful to protect yourself and your job. Many of the suggestions offered in this thread we already use in our planning. They are valuable.
I do urge you to work with a travel professional that specializes in student educational travel. There are a few that are better than others. I will share my thoughts with you if you would like to contact me.
I would be pleased to offer you any assistance I can. I can provide you with that "form" for taking underaged, unaccompanied children out of the country. I can forward any and all of the advice sheets and timetables we use in our planning.
You can contact me at my email address: cooperfam1 at yahoo.ca I look forward to hearing from you.
Contrary to some posters who have responded, I think you are a wonderful fellow who is willing to forego some of your personal vacation time (probably) to offer the youth in your school a chance to open their eyes about the world. I think some posters on Fodors forget there must be a first time to travel ... and an organized student tour can be the best way to pique an interest that can last a lifetime.
I teach at a high school and have organized and chaperoned student trips to Europe and Egypt. We leave in 31 days for France and Spain - 36 students, 4 chaperones, 15 days.
Our school is also located in a rural area. I can relate to some of your worries.
You must be careful to protect yourself and your job. Many of the suggestions offered in this thread we already use in our planning. They are valuable.
I do urge you to work with a travel professional that specializes in student educational travel. There are a few that are better than others. I will share my thoughts with you if you would like to contact me.
I would be pleased to offer you any assistance I can. I can provide you with that "form" for taking underaged, unaccompanied children out of the country. I can forward any and all of the advice sheets and timetables we use in our planning.
You can contact me at my email address: cooperfam1 at yahoo.ca I look forward to hearing from you.
