I couldn't believe how rough the Rome police treat THE GYPSIES
Sep 13th, 2010, 03:52 PM
#21
I thought the OP had been banned a few weeks ago.
As for police accosting people (how does the OP even know their nationality?)in Termini, I was in there several times in the past week and didn't see any such activity.
As for police accosting people (how does the OP even know their nationality?)in Termini, I was in there several times in the past week and didn't see any such activity.
Sep 14th, 2010, 12:05 AM
#24
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"...HOW would you know the people the cops were hassling were "GYPSIES". ... HOW would you know the people the cops were hassling were 'GYPSIES'."
The name "zingara" (most closely translated as gypsy) doesn't really carry the connotation of a specific national origin, as the gypsy culture is historically very transient, not following national borders.
"GYPSIES" are quite easily recognized and easily distinguishable by the way they dress and behave from other vagrant beggars (bag people, homeless, drug addicts, etc.) that also frequent the major Italian city centers, train stations, subways, asking (begging) for handouts and money, and sometimes small crimes such as pick-pocketing and theft.
Most major cities have some sort of vagrancy statutes which forbid begging, and as such do make it illegal to "hang out" aimlessly at the station, presumably as part of an effort to give the beggars less opportunity for the secondary activities of petty larceny.
The name "zingara" (most closely translated as gypsy) doesn't really carry the connotation of a specific national origin, as the gypsy culture is historically very transient, not following national borders.
"GYPSIES" are quite easily recognized and easily distinguishable by the way they dress and behave from other vagrant beggars (bag people, homeless, drug addicts, etc.) that also frequent the major Italian city centers, train stations, subways, asking (begging) for handouts and money, and sometimes small crimes such as pick-pocketing and theft.
Most major cities have some sort of vagrancy statutes which forbid begging, and as such do make it illegal to "hang out" aimlessly at the station, presumably as part of an effort to give the beggars less opportunity for the secondary activities of petty larceny.
Sep 14th, 2010, 11:50 AM
#25
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is my understanding that France expels gypsies (Rom, tzygane) not because of their ethnic background or blatant antisocial behavior, but because they stay over 90 days in a country member of EU without permission. France does not expel other gypsies who have necessary legal papers.
Sep 14th, 2010, 12:10 PM
#26
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Obviously many of you have never been pickpocketed by the gypsies in Rome.. a friend saw one going after a backpack at the Coleuseum and they never did a thing.. Their blackberry was stolen in Athens.. these are experienced travelers.. We are off to Rome in a month again and I can guarantee that anybody gets anywhere near myself or my husband a good yell may help, plus obviously careful precautions (we are an older couple).. I'm not sure what the story is with their children, but they will not prosecute under a certain age and they've resorted to taking x-rays of their arms... as to bone age....
Sep 14th, 2010, 12:35 PM
#27
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is very easy to spot who the begging Gypsies are because of the way they act, look and the clothes they wear. I understand some Gypsies have gone more mainstream but one thing that is common with most Gypsies in the train station is their unique look. They do not look like Italians.
Sep 14th, 2010, 12:36 PM
#28
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 78,320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, I haven't noticed lots of very aggressive police officers going after gypsies in Rome.>
Me either but if you read reports in the media recently of how roughly police acted under the Fascist current Prime Minister of Italy then you would believe that it can and does happen.
check out recent reports of alleged police brutality in clearing camps around Rome - part of a hysteria caused by the Fascist PM's virulent anti-Romani crusade - a crusade apparently many Italians support because they have been victimized by Romani pickpockets, etc.
Me either but if you read reports in the media recently of how roughly police acted under the Fascist current Prime Minister of Italy then you would believe that it can and does happen.
check out recent reports of alleged police brutality in clearing camps around Rome - part of a hysteria caused by the Fascist PM's virulent anti-Romani crusade - a crusade apparently many Italians support because they have been victimized by Romani pickpockets, etc.
Sep 14th, 2010, 12:48 PM
#29
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 78,320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
. Maybe lawyers and lawsuits don't have as much power in Italy.>
especially so when it comes to that Fascist Berlosconi - who has had serious lawsuits against his business empire simply dismissed by fiat.
especially so when it comes to that Fascist Berlosconi - who has had serious lawsuits against his business empire simply dismissed by fiat.
Sep 14th, 2010, 01:45 PM
#30
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The unspoken problem with Gypsies, or Roma, or whatever you prefer to call this subculture, is that it's a culture based on shafting the rest of the human race. That is, this particular group makes its living by committing all sorts of illegal acts, such as pickpocketing, shoplifting, con games and scams, begging (although this is not always illegal--it's legal in France), scamming the government, and so on.
This aspect of the culture naturally causes universal conflict with the mainstream of society, and that's why Gypsies/Roma are regularly driven out of every country in which they attempt to reside (although the Nazis tried to exterminate them instead). As long as their culture works to the detriment of society at large, they become targets. Some of them use this to their advantage to complain about systematic discrimination and harassment.
I had never seen Gypsies prior to traveling to Europe (apart from some old Hollywood stereotypes on the Andy Griffith Show) and had always assumed that there couldn't be such a thing as a culture based on conning everyone else, but I was quickly enlightened after visiting the Continent. I'd like to say that it's not true, but unfortunately it is true.
Just as organized crime is routinely targeted for harassment by the authorities, an identifiable group of any kind that subsists by committing illegal or antisocial acts will naturally attract the same type of attention. You only have to spend a few hours in some of Europe's major cities to see that the problem is not made up. The authorities do not pursue Gypsies just because they are Gypsies, but when they are milling about in a public place trying to steal the wallets of passerby, neither do the authorities simply stand aside and watch (although this varies greatly by country and public mood).
I'm not sure what Italy is doing, but France is indeed deporting Gypsies who are not in the country legally (which covers a lot of Gypsies). Illegal residency is one of many practices in which they frequently engage that are outside the law.
There are many people of Gyspy ethnicity who live within the mainstream of society, legally. They are not a problem (the famous singer Serge Gainsbourg was of Gypsy heritage, for example). The problem is those who belong to a semi-criminal subculture that bases its entire "economy" upon taking things from the rest of society. Historically, there have been many subcultures like this in many societies, and they are always a problem. The Gypsies are driven from one country to another because of their disdain for the rules of society, but many of them choose never to join the mainstream and thus form a core subculture that is regularly pursued by the authorities of virtually every nation to which they move.
You can pretend this is all false out of political correctness and let the resulting criminal activity continue, or you can face the truth and try to do something about it.
This aspect of the culture naturally causes universal conflict with the mainstream of society, and that's why Gypsies/Roma are regularly driven out of every country in which they attempt to reside (although the Nazis tried to exterminate them instead). As long as their culture works to the detriment of society at large, they become targets. Some of them use this to their advantage to complain about systematic discrimination and harassment.
I had never seen Gypsies prior to traveling to Europe (apart from some old Hollywood stereotypes on the Andy Griffith Show) and had always assumed that there couldn't be such a thing as a culture based on conning everyone else, but I was quickly enlightened after visiting the Continent. I'd like to say that it's not true, but unfortunately it is true.
Just as organized crime is routinely targeted for harassment by the authorities, an identifiable group of any kind that subsists by committing illegal or antisocial acts will naturally attract the same type of attention. You only have to spend a few hours in some of Europe's major cities to see that the problem is not made up. The authorities do not pursue Gypsies just because they are Gypsies, but when they are milling about in a public place trying to steal the wallets of passerby, neither do the authorities simply stand aside and watch (although this varies greatly by country and public mood).
I'm not sure what Italy is doing, but France is indeed deporting Gypsies who are not in the country legally (which covers a lot of Gypsies). Illegal residency is one of many practices in which they frequently engage that are outside the law.
There are many people of Gyspy ethnicity who live within the mainstream of society, legally. They are not a problem (the famous singer Serge Gainsbourg was of Gypsy heritage, for example). The problem is those who belong to a semi-criminal subculture that bases its entire "economy" upon taking things from the rest of society. Historically, there have been many subcultures like this in many societies, and they are always a problem. The Gypsies are driven from one country to another because of their disdain for the rules of society, but many of them choose never to join the mainstream and thus form a core subculture that is regularly pursued by the authorities of virtually every nation to which they move.
You can pretend this is all false out of political correctness and let the resulting criminal activity continue, or you can face the truth and try to do something about it.
Sep 14th, 2010, 02:14 PM
#32
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nikki, I'm not sure. I often heard that Gainsbourg came from gypsies, but I never actually looked it up. Of course, a person could be part of the gypsy culture with ancestors from any country, but a glance at his bio makes no mention of gypsy associations.
Maybe I did confuse it with Reinhardt, although I know his specifics even less than I know Gainsbourg's (I was never a fan of either of them).
Anyway, the point was that people within the gypsy culture (which I probably shouldn't capitalize, since it can be used as a generic adjective rather than just a name for an ethnic group) can leave it and join the mainstream. I know examples of this, although it's hard to break away in just one generation. There may be people in mainstream society who join the gypsy culture, too, but I've never heard of any specific cases (it's not a very attractive culture to outsiders).
Maybe I did confuse it with Reinhardt, although I know his specifics even less than I know Gainsbourg's (I was never a fan of either of them).
Anyway, the point was that people within the gypsy culture (which I probably shouldn't capitalize, since it can be used as a generic adjective rather than just a name for an ethnic group) can leave it and join the mainstream. I know examples of this, although it's hard to break away in just one generation. There may be people in mainstream society who join the gypsy culture, too, but I've never heard of any specific cases (it's not a very attractive culture to outsiders).
Sep 14th, 2010, 07:27 PM
#34
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 49,560
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<it's not a very attractive culture to outsiders.>>
actually, it's a fascinating culture to some, me included. Some of the work that I do with international development agencies relates to the Rom, and I am fascinated by their culture as well as the walls of oppression they have experienced from cultured societies in Europe and elsewhere. I'm no apologist for them, nor am I am PC advocate, but what I have witnessed over many years is the utter ignorance of folks regarding the Rom and their culture and background and the attendant dismissal of them as a viable part of society. It's not a pretty society as we know it, and there are elements of it that are known for thievery and prostitution and pickpocketing and child abuse and worse...but there is also a Rom culture that is not associated with these vices.
I totally understand the innocent and yet vicious touristic reactions to the "gypsies who ripped us off in Rome," but please, can you first of all stop using the term "gypsies" and second of all step back a bit and learn a bit about the history of the Rom and maybe, maybe, understand how history has formed this people? Agreed - they are unique in that they refuse to assimilate. Agreed - they don't want to integrate. Agreed - they have many members who engage in petty crime. Agreed - they need a place to live. Agreed - they need some sort of social support network. Agreed - they are loathed by most people who don't know any better.
People who write about
actually, it's a fascinating culture to some, me included. Some of the work that I do with international development agencies relates to the Rom, and I am fascinated by their culture as well as the walls of oppression they have experienced from cultured societies in Europe and elsewhere. I'm no apologist for them, nor am I am PC advocate, but what I have witnessed over many years is the utter ignorance of folks regarding the Rom and their culture and background and the attendant dismissal of them as a viable part of society. It's not a pretty society as we know it, and there are elements of it that are known for thievery and prostitution and pickpocketing and child abuse and worse...but there is also a Rom culture that is not associated with these vices.
I totally understand the innocent and yet vicious touristic reactions to the "gypsies who ripped us off in Rome," but please, can you first of all stop using the term "gypsies" and second of all step back a bit and learn a bit about the history of the Rom and maybe, maybe, understand how history has formed this people? Agreed - they are unique in that they refuse to assimilate. Agreed - they don't want to integrate. Agreed - they have many members who engage in petty crime. Agreed - they need a place to live. Agreed - they need some sort of social support network. Agreed - they are loathed by most people who don't know any better.
People who write about
Sep 14th, 2010, 07:42 PM
#35
Gainsbourg was not from a gypsy background.
Djando Reinhardt was the most famous as are now the
the modern Gypsy Kings, the musical group consists of one who has a restaurant and a father the king of the gypsies in the
Camargue whewre there are also hard working gypsies.
Djando Reinhardt was the most famous as are now the
the modern Gypsy Kings, the musical group consists of one who has a restaurant and a father the king of the gypsies in the
Camargue whewre there are also hard working gypsies.
Sep 14th, 2010, 08:55 PM
#36
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So WorldTraveler1024 has gone from being a guy who wears makeup, and being a woman who is unhappy with the length of time her husband spends in museums, to hanging around train stations in Italy.
At least it's a change from complaining about bed firmness.
When you observed the police brutality, were you doing so as a male or a female?
At least it's a change from complaining about bed firmness.
When you observed the police brutality, were you doing so as a male or a female?
Sep 15th, 2010, 02:27 AM
#37
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Taggie said: So WorldTraveler1024 has gone from being a guy who wears makeup, and being a woman who is unhappy with the length of time her husband spends in museums, to hanging around train stations in Italy.
At least it's a change from complaining about bed firmness.
When you observed the police brutality, were you doing so as a male or a female?
Our Reply:
WorldTraveler1024 is written by both a man and a woman (a husband and wife who agree to disagree when traveling and have a share of conflict during stressful international vacations. We have traveled around the world but are still "Ugly Americans" when we travel and really miss the nice food and comfortable hotels in America. We enjoy international travel but are really tired of noisy hotels with super rock hard beds and overpriced restaurants in Europe. And we make many observations about what we see when traveling. This time some of our observations were about Gypsies. OK?
At least it's a change from complaining about bed firmness.
When you observed the police brutality, were you doing so as a male or a female?
Our Reply:
WorldTraveler1024 is written by both a man and a woman (a husband and wife who agree to disagree when traveling and have a share of conflict during stressful international vacations. We have traveled around the world but are still "Ugly Americans" when we travel and really miss the nice food and comfortable hotels in America. We enjoy international travel but are really tired of noisy hotels with super rock hard beds and overpriced restaurants in Europe. And we make many observations about what we see when traveling. This time some of our observations were about Gypsies. OK?
