WorldTraveler1024

Arriving in Rome in the main train terminal we were shocked at the crowds, energy level and rough looking crowd hanging out. What really shocked me was the large number of police everywhere at the train terminal. They were heavly armed and quite aggressive. When ever a gypsy would come out and beg or cause trouble the police came out aggressively. I actualy saw a policeman beat a begging gypsy with a night stick! Others were hauled away in a very rough way. Maybe lawyers and lawsuits don't have as much power in Italy.

Have you noticed lots of very aggressive police officers going after gypsies in Rome?

Zerlina

Trying to start a little controversy here, are we?

No, I haven't noticed lots of very aggressive police officers going after gypsies in Rome.

P.S. Gypsies are not likely to engage lawyers, even if they could afford to. No more than black people in the great and glorious USA were when they were subjected to worse treatment than what you describe.

daveesl

While that is not normally the case, several factors can come into play that could create that situation.

First, there are two types of police in Rome. The Municipal Police (who wear the blue and gray uniforms) and the Caribinari (kind of like a mixture of State Police and Military Police, who wear really nice red and dark blue uniforms). The Municipal police normally don't bother the gypsies, where the Caribinari will get them to move on from tourist spots and occasionally arrest someone for selling fake items. I've seen multiple Caribinari arrests and they have always been with what seemed to be an strong respect for a person's dignity.

Now, a few years ago, the wife of one of the members of the Chamber of Deputies was murdered by a Romanian. The Romanians had a kind of shanty town north of the city. Within a few days, the Caribinari had bulldozed the town down and cracked down on the Romanians, but it soon kind of eased off again.

In addition, the influx of illegal immigrants from both eastern Europe and North Africa has become a problem in many European countries and they are all cracking down on them, such as France. So perhaps Italy is also getting into the mix of mass deportations, who knows.

Remember, many of the gypsies are in the country illegally and if it is perceived they are having an affect on tourism or the economy, then the government may well have ordered a crackdown.

dave

daveesl

Gee Zerlina, I did not know that only the U.S. had a history of brutality against a certain race or religious group. I seem to remember something about how Jewish people had been treated in many parts of Europe, or Buddhists and Muslims in China to this day.

All countries have their dark sides, so let's get off the finger pointing crap

dave

Padraig

daveesl's reproof or Zerlina would have come across better if he had taken the trouble to distinguish between Romanians and Roma/Romany people.

Zerlina

Dave, when an American points a finger, it's only fair to point the finger back.

And it would help if you got your facts straight: Romania has been a member of the European Union since 2007, so Romanians and Romanian Roma/Romany now enter Italy legally. Nor am I aware of "mass deportations" of Roma/Romany from any European country.

StCirq

Lest we get confused with potential references to the Caribbean or pasta sauces, it's carabinieri, not carabinari.

And there is a difference between Romanians and Roma.

And to the OP: was this a one-time sighting or are you making a sweeping generalization based on one pass through Termini? I suspect the latter, but please do clarify if you hang out there on a regular basis.

scrb11

It's a bad history. As the Economist says, if this type of treatment was occurring on another continent, Europeans would be critical.

http://www.fodors.com/community/fodo...f-the-roma.cfm

These people garner little sympathy though, because of the petty crimes with which they're associated. The locals look down on them with contempt and nobody is trying to help them normalize into the mainstream -- they won't be hired even for the kind of low-skilled, menial jobs offered to the Hispanic immigrants in the US.

suec1

To Zerlina and whoever is itnerested - I think that France, particularly Paris, is currently trying to "encourage" their Romany to move along, perhaps to Romainia, altho their "homeland" is purportedly India. I think I read that France is giving those that choose to leave 300E.

StCirq

It's not "particularly Paris." It's a country-wide directive by Sarkozy to shut down 300 Rom encampments over a period of time. The first one, in Saint-Etienne, was shut down on August 6. And the directive is meant, at least eventually, to target all undocumented illegals, not just Rom (though the Rom are probably the most visible). They're not being "encouraged." They're being expelled if they don't have proper papers. Whether or not those expelled will go back to Romania is anyone's guess. And India hasn't been their homeland for 1,000 years.

socaltraveler

As far as the OP goes, it's probably just a one time sweeping and general indictment, sort of the way he/she felt about Italian beds, and B&B's. Probably not the right place for this topic IMHO.

ekscrunchy

Sounds like you spent a long time hanging out at the train station.



Did you not get bored like you do at most "tourist attractions?"

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...attraction.cfm

nochblad

This is a topic which is somewhat contentious and perhaps the OP intended it so. But as they say in Italian - mi butto!

A little bit of history. Italy - in its various manifestations has always been a country where foreigners - welcome or not - have made home in one format or another.

When Rome dominated the world - as known to Wesrtern Europe at the time - peoples arrived at Rome and populated the "country" from all over the Roman Empire - some in passing some who remained. Later there have been the Normans, the Aragons etc etc. This is still reflected in the various dialects be it in Sicily, Calabria, Puglia etc. The dialect in the area of north western Sardinian is a form of Catalan.

Northern Italy has been influenced by the Napoleonic invasion and the subsequent Austro-Hungarian influence.

In recent years many have come to Italy in search of work be it of a domestic nature, or industrial or otherwise. With the risk of being accused of generalisations, the Phillipines have generally entered into domestic service, with the same applying to those from Sri Lanka even though many have looked for other opportunities. Most of those from West Africa have end up selling goods in the road - the typical individual selling Louis Vuitton knock offs etc - but often they have progressed to selling at regular markets and thus have become "legal". Others - especially those from the Balkans have been hired by the small industrial companies of the North West of Italy and have been highly valued and appreciated. Many from Poland and other countries of Eastern Europe have become "badanti" or home helpers meaning that granny or granpa has been cared for at home in their final days.

In all such cases above the individuals and their near family have been accepted by Italy and have wanted to integrate themselves and their family.

The issue here is that, generally (and I am very sensitive to generalisations), the Roma community (which is quite distinct from the people from Romania) is a proud, nomadic and independent grouping. It is not in their nature to integrate (or at least it is perceived as such). With the opening of the borders many have arrived in Italy - it is said that there may be as many as 600,000 - but the "problem" is that, unlike many of the other recent arrivals, they do not wish to integrate. They do not seek what you might call gainful employment, they do not willingly send their children to school etc.
It is a very real problem and it is not always understood in countries such as England or America which are protected by barriers be they geographic or other. England or America may complain about the influx of arrivals from Eastern Europe or latin America respectively but, at least, in most instances the arrivals are willing and more to integrate, This is frequently not the case with the Roma and I believe that the problems faced by italy and more recently France derive from this apparent reality.

Christina

I think Zerlina was saying that Roma who are Romanians are EU citizens. A lot of them are from Romania, they have a high proportion (as does Bulgaria, I believe, from the article I've read recently, not that I doubted that). I think there are a large portion in CR, also. However, I think someone else above may not be aware of the fact that no one is "encouraging" Roma to move to Romania unless they were actually Romanians (and many of them in France are).

nochblad

Sorry - I meant North East and not North West as above.

Regarding other comments - the Roma are a community which is largely based in Romania (hence the confusion) but are also present in Bulgaria, Hungary and to a lesser extent in other Eastern European nations.
The Romania - France link is historically particularly close which is what gives a special "angle" to the whole issue.

suze

I have a hard time taking the post seriously, because of all the other "observations" and complaints this OP is posting to the forum. Smells fishy.

Sue878

Maybe that's why OP's husband wants to take separate vacations.

ekscrunchy

But the OP was a man just a few months ago!

daveesl

Yes, the "Roma" is a subculture of many nationalities. Beginning in 2008 there was a country-wide uprising against the Roma, many of whom came from Romania, but also from other Balkan countries.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1111116362771

And today the French are busy doing the same thing, deporting the Roma, many of whom come from Romania. That does not mean they are Romanians.

More deportations are happening now in Rome

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...ing-mayor.html

You might want to read the part on where the Roma are from.

Yes, I accidentally spelled Caribinieri wrong in my answer (several times I might add), oh please forgive me.

I have also been known to spell lots of other things wrong, luckily I'm the only person on this board that does it. I also do not follow proper grammatical rules. I also do not give a #%&*.



dave

LoveItaly

The original poster is a potstirrer and cannot decide if he/she has a husband or a wife..this information came to light thanks to our ekscrunchy. Click on the OP profile to see the various threads. Quite interesting, lol.