Ignorance concerning the half million Roma who perished during the Holocaust reinforces anti-Roma prejudice today. To counter this, the European Parliament should ...
blog.soros.org/2010/12/the-roma-holocaust-the-history

If this bothers you simply walk on...

But inclusion not exclusion is the answer

if there is one.

In Key West we do the "bum the bum first" Soon as you see them ask them for a cigarette first and it totally throws them off. They aren't as bad as they use to be but are still a pain in the arse. I do know Ireland has had a problem for years with the women asking for money for milk for their baby. Check out the baby and many times it is fake. It is very uncomfortable and I ignore them and usually have a jacket on with an inside zipper pocket. If I carry a purse it is small and a crossover.

The main reason gypsies have been persecuted and driven out of so many countries is that they have a culture that revolves around shafting the rest of society. Obviously, that's not a way to make friends. It's a bit like the Mafia, except that, for some reason, it's okay to admit that the Mafia is filled with crooks, but it's politically incorrect to acknowledge that gypsy culture is based on taking advantage of non-gypsies.

You can be politically correct and get your wallet stolen, or you can face reality and keep your credit cards, cash, and passport.

We encountered many of these during our time in Paris. We, of course knew it was a scam due to info here on Fodors, so no problem for us. We watched the gypsies/beggars/scammers approach unsuspecting tourists and hoped the tourists would make the right choice and walk away. Most did.

Then the beggars approached a young girl, probably 16-18 yrs old. They had her. She was going for her wallet. I intervened, luckily she spoke English. The beggar was most certainly not deaf or mute, at that point she was yelling at us in whatever language she spoke and then she pointed at my husband and from her hand motions, we surmised, she cast a spell on him. It was pretty entertaining.

Adults, you're on your own, but they shouldn't go after young, naive kids. I just had to step in then. Kind of crossing the line IMO.

I'm amazed that there are still men who carry their wallet (with lots of cash and credit cards) in the back pocket ANYPLACE (Europe or otherwise).

I carry a tiny, tiny, amazingly thin and small billfold that is so thin and small, it can hold only my transit pass and about 20 Euros in my breast pocket. You can't even see it when my reading glasses and a pen are also in the pocket. In addition, if it's not too warm, I might wear a lightweight pullover sweater over it.

Extra cash and credit/ATM cards go in a hidden wallet attached to my pants and tucked in out of sight. It's a pain to get it out when I need it, but so far no losses.

All major cash and documents and everything else stay in the hotel safe.

SS

michele_d--Our DD just finished a study abroad term in Paris. She told me a story about a young Japanese tourist who was about to get her purse lifted from one of these deaf/mute people. Another student that DD was with saw it start to happen and told the tourist, in the nick of time. The deaf/mute girl turned to DD's friend, so obviously heard her, and got mad and jabbed her pen in DD's friends rear end! No damage, thankfully, but DD's friend definitely gave the deaf/mute an earful.

mms,
Yes, those deaf/mutes can get kind of testy when you interrupt their "work".

AnthonyGA - you should be ashamed of yourself. Write that paragraph again and replace "gypsies" with "jews". Still happy to post it? Well, that's exactly the sort of thing you would have heard out of the Nazis. As has been pointed out, the Roma were targeted in the Holocaust as well, and are still widely persecuted and discriminated against, as even you yourself acknowledge. Whether or not there is a criminal element in a society, it is unfair and wrong to claim that all members of that society are criminal or that their entire culture is based on criminality.

I do not think that AntonyGA said that " that all members of that society are criminal or that their entire culture is based on criminality", but that almost all "deaf / mute" beggers and / or thefts are gypsies.

To be precise, he said "The main reason gypsies have been persecuted and driven out of so many countries is that they have a culture that revolves around shafting the rest of society... it's politically incorrect to acknowledge that gypsy culture is based on taking advantage of non-gypsies". I think my response was a fair reflection of those sentiments.

A wish to help others is human nature. Naive/inexperienced to stop for these people, yes. Stupid? not necessarily.

It's good to forewarn occasionally as you have done here, Anthony, because many don't come from metropolitan areas where this sort of thing goes on.

<<You can be politically correct and get your wallet stolen, or you can face reality and keep your credit cards, cash, and passport.>>

Or you can acknowledge the value of the Roma culture for what it is - far more than just a culture of "shafting the rest of society" - and still not be a dumb-ass tourist who gets taken advantage of by ANYone.

I will stand by my statements. The gypsy culture (or Roma culture, if that makes you happier) revolves around a sharp division between other gypsies and the rest of society. The rest of society consists solely of "marks," waiting to be fleeced, in gypsy culture. It's a culture based on scamming or stealing from anyone outside that culture. That's why it has historically been so unpopular.

The tired old comparison to the Jews won't work. Judaism isn't based on criminal activity. Jews are not raised to steal from non-Jews. But gypsies are. It may not be politically correct to acknowledge that, but that doesn't prevent it from being true.

Gypsies who leave this culture and join the mainstream obviously have a different viewpoint—although it's very hard to completely follow the straight and narrow path if you've been raised in a society where dishonesty towards others is the rule. But for those who are in that culture, "shafting the rest of society" is standard practice.

I'm sorry that the culture is that way, and I'm sorry to say that I've never had any interaction with a gypsy that didn't involve some sort of attempted scam or theft, but that's the way it is. And you can bet that the favorite victims of gypsy scams are the ones who stubbornly refuse to accept this reality.

I'm in Paris now, and despite this thread I had no idea just HOW big this scam has become in Paris. In the past week, I'd estimate I've been approached at least 8 or 9 times and have observed others being approached at least three times that many times. I've watched as what appeared to be a local businessman on Rue Honore sign the form, then get shaken down for money, and when the girl became aggressive pointed to what must be the "small print amount" he had agreed to by signing, he walked away, with the girl running after him and hitting him sharply in the back with her clipboard.

But yesterday morning early on the bridge right behind Notre Dame, I saw the most amazing thing (well, not so amazing really). There were about a dozen of these girls chatting and laughing, then they split up into groups of three and went in opposite directions. It was then I realized that what they were carrying were those clipboards with pledge forms and sure enough, immediately one of the girls stopped to cyclists and were getting them to sign. I've never watched a group of "deaf girls" actively chatting and laughing before. SCAM indeed.

I don't see too many of them, since I do not spend the day in tourist areas, except for the Champs Elysées gypsies who are folded into a position of prostration every 100 meters up and down the street. They're not too much of a bother except as obstacles when you are walking.

However, one thing really mystifies me about the working (scamming) gypsies, and that is the way they are dressed, almost as though it's a uniform. Therefore, the moment they try to walk up to you (if you know about them), it's easy to get them to back off with just a hand motion. Since they don't wear those dresses and scarves when they are "off duty" -- they wear jeans and t-shirts -- it seems to me that they could scam a lot more people if they blended into the crowd. The only possible explanation that I can think of for the outfits is that they can pretend more easily not to speak French when the police collar them temporarily.

The good news is the colder weather is coming and the scammers move on to a warmer climate!

These young scammers or beggers are under age which is why the police can't do anything. They are usually under 15 years of age and a lot of the girls are pregnant too! I saw 5 coming out of a police station, all girls, all around 12 years of age, ALL of them pregant. The police officer told me they couldn't do anything about it and had to let them off with a warning.

kerouac, one thing about your post puzzles me, but maybe I'm misunderstanding. Are you talking about the "uniform" of the "deaf" scammers? If so, you must be right that you don't see them. I haven't seen any in such a uniform, they tend to dress very much like other girls their age and do indeed blend in with the crowd. If anything, I've sometimes thought they looked a little too 'trendy' teen to arouse a lot of sympathy.

Oh, I've only seen them dressed a gypsies with the long skirts and the head scarves. If you have seen trendy ones, that means they are finally adapting to the environment. The last ones I saw with a clipboard were at Pont Neuf in mid August, but there was no mistaking their gypsy garb.

Ah, then yes indeed, they have changed. I haven't seen one dressed in "traditional gypsy" garb.

Early one morning when we were getting off the metro at the Arc, the gypsies were having their morning 'briefing'. A group of 10 or so were being briefed on the day's activities. Everyone then scattered and 'went to work'. We had already been witness to the ring scam so we had a big laugh when a man and a woman both 'found' a ring in front of us at the exact same second. (hey, it was early, not many tourists around yet). They both bent down at the same time and when they went to stand up their eyes met, neither said a word, they both just turned and walked in opposite directions. That's one way to get rid of them.

I've tried telling tourists that they are being scammed, right in front of the "deaf" gypsy girls, but I'm surprised by how few tourists pay attention. Either they don't understand English, or they incorrectly believe that I'm the scammer. As I recall, studies have shown that if a bad person is criticized by another person while he is victimizing someone, people will spontaneously spring to the bad person's defense, no matter what wicked act he is carrying out.

Wow. Just this morning I posted on this thread and then today I was pickpocketed in Paris. Something I honestly thought could never happen to me. Rather than post that story here, I'll provide a link as it has nothing to do with the 'deaf' scam, but still a number of issues discussed here fall into play -- including comments here about what "can't" be done since they are young girls.

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...police-car.cfm

There is a thread on pickpockets in Spain with some rather stronG, if not hysterical, comments.

Not long ago , I saw a documentary about organized crime groups from Romania ( yes, Romas )
operating in Madrid and Milano.
The children are sent daily to the city center (often near the train station ot ATM machines ) to steel.
They are supervised by adults, often their parents. The big shots live in huge homes back in the villages of Romania.
It was really sad to see the children exploited that way.
The Spanish and Italian authorities seemed exasperated and unable to stop the criminals.

Various scams in Paris (gold rings, def/mute. etc,) may be run by similar
gangs.

I notices that several times the perps were referred to several times as Romanian. While there are indeed Roma in Romania, the bulk of the Roma population live elsewhere, particularly in the Balkan countries and originated on the Indian sub-continent.

Also, we need to be careful in painting any ethnicity with a broadbrush and using stereotypes. There is a long list of people of Roma ancestry who are distinguished in arts, music, theater, science, politics, etc. A few surprising examples of people that you would know who have roots in the Roma include Yul Brynner (who was an honorary president of a Roma organization) Sir Charles Chaplin who was part Roma on his mother's side, Rickie Lee Jones, Sir Michael Caine, Sir Sean Connery, Sir Roger Moore, even Elvis Presley traces back to Germanic Sinta roots.

I left out that there were also two Roma past Presidents of Brazil.

I have yet to see where anyone here has suggested or even hinted that all Roma are bad are even anything remotely like it. If someone posted "the guy who robbed me was tall", would everyone suddenly jump on the bandwagon to insist that not all tall people are bad? Of course not.

Such over reaction to a description of someone who has done bad things to even think it means people are trying to "stereotype" all people is just plain silly.

On the other hand it is simply insane to suggest that mentioning much of the petty crime in Paris (or elsewhere) is being done by Roma people is incorrect. Wake up and smell the coffee or at least get your heads out of the sand.

Actually NP it wasn't your posts I was referring to and it wasn't you who was stereotyping if anything I applauded your actions and said so. I was talking about the broad brush strokes such as "The gypsy culture (or Roma culture, if that makes you happier) revolves around a sharp division between other gypsies and the rest of society. The rest of society consists solely of "marks," waiting to be fleeced, in gypsy culture. It's a culture based on scamming or stealing from anyone outside that culture."

That is an absolute statement.

Roma culture does not require stealing, although there are plenty who do. Jewish culture does not require chasing money although plenty do. Black culture does not require being lazy and shiftless although plenty are. I could go on and on, there is a place that goes beyond realism and turns into ethnic stereotyping.

I have had my pocket picked by Roma kids in Rome. I have also been mugged by Italians, Irish and Puerto Ricans at different times in Brooklyn when ethnic gangs ruled neighborhoods. I have been cheated by a Jew but have also been cheated by a Christian Evangelical for even more. So, what is the point?

There are several Roma (from Romania - that is what they have told me since I talk to them) in my non touristy neighborhood. They are not thieves, just beggars. I wish they would find a better way to make a living, but they are good people who always ask me about my mother (every now and then they see me pushing her wheelchair through the neighborhood), and I have complete confidence that the one who sits directly in front of my building is more useful than a guard dog.

I do photo sessions for her at her request from time to time and she takes the pictures back to Romania.

http://i450.photobucket.com/albums/q...fe/roma008.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8226580.stm.

"Across Europe thousands of Roma (Gypsy) children are being forced onto the streets to beg and steal, and law enforcement agencies are seemingly powerless to prevent it."

Madrid police say that 95% of children under 14 that they pick up stealing on the streets are Roma from Romania.

Because the age of criminal responsibility in Spain is 14, there is little they can do.


Every day children from the camp head out into the city to steal and beg, and many are beaten by their minders if they do not return with money."


In Milan in 2007, just after Romania entered the European Union, police noticed a surge in theft and pick-pocketing carried out by Roma children. "

the BBC documentary .

"So, what is the point?"


There is no point in stereotyping any group, but there is also no point in pretending that
the unfortunate reality of some Roma children and the existence of criminal gangs exploiting them is not a problem.

Danon, I agree with your point 100%.

Some years ago my family - that was me, DW and 2 of our children then in the 2nd and 4th grades were visiting Rome - it was in the midst of the tourist season. We parked our car and walked down towards the Colisium where we saw a sight that was unusual even for Rome. There were groups of kids, presumably Roma all over accosting tourists and some natives alike (the non tourists were given away by their screaming at the kids in Italian). In the area in front of the Colisium was a police van and next to the van was a fenced in pen, full of the kids. The van would fill up with kids and a new one would pull up. There were plain clothed Italian police all over catching the kids as fast as they could and bringing them down to the pen while other kids were still picking pockets. We stood there with our backs against the wall watching the action.

After a while we decided to carefully walk back to the car. I dropped a couple of steps behind DW and the kids so that I could keep an eye on them. I felt footsteps coming up behind me and saw what seemed to be a 14 year old break into a run towards DW. It was obvious he was going for her pocketbook. Before I could react, a young cop made an amazing open field tackle of the kid bringing him down but the kid wiggled free and ran away. Later (it was a pretty good walk back to the car) we saw the kid again with his handler. Talk about stereotypes. The kid was handing over money to a guy in a slick shark skin suite, black enamel hair, jewelry, the works. The handler was adding the kids money to a roll of bills that would have choked a horse.

The next part of this story I have already repeated on this forum. When DD returned to her 2nd grade class, for show and tell she demonstrated how to pick pockets.

Thanks for posting our experience.
In the BBC documentary, the kids in Madrid and Milan were supervised by adults or returned after
" work" to their scum parents who were no better than the man you describe.
Of course, they did not attend school or have any other normal
activities. Their
life was like something straight out of Dickens.
The most disgusting. was the sight of huge, luxury homes the crime bosses built in the
native villages - all on the backs of poor children.

Sorry, your experience...

The exploitation of children by adults is a worldwide shame. Child soldiers, child drug carriers, indoctrinating kids that their highest calling is to blow themselves up. It seems to be constantly escalating.

Oh great. I just fell for one of them.

The stereotyping of "dark" gypsies with long skirts who are a bit filthy may work to warn in many cases, but these scammers are not all like that.

I was on an early morning train from Vienna through Hungary to Zagreb and was the only one in first class except for a young couple. They did not fit the stereotype, in fact, they looked like clean-cut and prosperous young adults from Germany.

When the Austrian conductor came to collect tickets, there was a long dispute with the conductor by the young couple. It turned out the young couple had money but not in euros which was the only kind of currency the conductor would accept. So i offered to help. The young man handed me some Hungarian money and I gave the conductor euros for the girl's ticket up to the Hungarian border. (Remember, I have to pull out euros under the watchful eyes of this girl.)

At the Hungarian border, the Hungarian conductor came and again the same scenerio, I produce euros, etc.

At the last Hungarian stop, the young man gets off. The girl stays behind to "chat" with me. Her English is quite good. She says that when the train gets to the Croatian border, she has enough Croatian money to get her to Zagreb, so she doesn't need my help.

She tells me that she has been studying at a special hospitality seminar for three months in Lithuania and is now returning home. My alarm bells are beginning to sound. Do you see the problem here? The young man who got off and with whom she has been whispering throughout the train ride, she claims, is a "mere" acquaintance and is Hungarian. She's Croatian. She studied in Lithuania.

These are three languages that aren't exactly mutually intelligible. She has to be one heck of a linguist, even for an European.

She also has no luggage. So, she's going home after finishing her studies in Lithuania and she has no luggage? Just one tiny purse.

She sticks by me and I am more than grateful for her "help" at the ATM machine in the Zagreb train station. She can barely hide her disappointment at the little amount that I draw out.

Was she a Roma? Sure couldn't tell by her looks.

Was she a scammer? Most likely.

She at least got the young man to pay for her train ticket by exchanging his Hungarian Florints for my euros, then she watched as I exchanged my euros for Croatian kunas at the ATM machine in the Zagreb train station.

Aside from a shared snack, she got nothing more from me.

I escaped - why? Because I had my scottevest on with its 22 pockets and I always keep 50-100 euros and one credit card in an outside pocket. All she saw was what was in the outside pocket. The rest are all in the inside pockets. Unless she physically attacked me and unzipped all the pockets, she wouldn't have been able to get at much.

We parted friends.

Not all scammers are Roma and not all Roma have to look their stereotype.

When traveling one always has to be on the alert, you never know what the next scammer will look like...

From the International Herald Tribune of 9/16/11(?). "Sarkozy Sets His Sights on Begging and Public Prayer. In an enhanced campaign against petty crime and criminality, the Gov't of Pres. N. Sarkozy, facing elections nest spring, has banned begging for the next six months on the Champs-Elysee from 10 AM to 10 PM as well as prayer on the streets outside crowded mosques according to Interior Mlinister Claude Gueant.
Mr. Gueant has also announced a renewed crackdown on non-French Roma who overstay their visas and sometimes work as pickpockets, saying that delinquent minors will be deported. Since January, 10 percent of people "who have appeared before a magistrate have been Romanian," he said in interview published in Le Parisien theis week. "It has to stop".

Once on a trip to Provence, I was staying in Villeneuve-lez-Avignon but would boat ride or walk across the bridge to
Avignon. One day on my walk by the Carousel, I saw a sweet little dog wearing a jean jacket sitting atop an organ grinder.
I stopped to take a photo and as a walked away, this pre-teen
young gypsy girl ran after me screaming, you took a picture of
my dog, you must pay..s o I put a less than a franc coin in her hand and as I smiled away she tossed it at me.I. would have gladly given her some money had she not been rude

You don't have to pay to take someone's picture. The gypsy girl was incorrect.