If they are working under the table, then they are breaking Italian law. Is Italian law not to be applied to them? You are supporting the black market; in fact, you might be taking a job away from an Italian who needs it but can't get one because of someone who is working illegally in that restaurant in the tourist area. Moreover, how do you know for certain those waiters are illegal? Perhaps they have been granted asylum and enjoy the right to work as any Italian even if they have heavy foreign accents. And why do those restaurants expect tourists to leave tips in the first place? Because they know the tourists will without a second thought and they might be cooking the books (no pun intended) to the disadvantage of the foreigner. Alice is correct in her postings; by tipping and taking it upon yourself to be the judge if you should tip here and not there, you are making value judgments on people without knowing the facts for certain.

dkd:<BR><BR>When you ask if the law does not apply to those who work under the table in e restaurant (and often they are Italians!) you suppose that these people are glad of working without norms and no legal control for a pay that is lower than what the regular employees receive. This are the other way round: some people just will not have a regular employee because it isn't cheap enough and because it is LEGAL. You do not support legality by not giving these people a tip (nor by not giving them any), you support legality by not eating in these places and at the same time supporting the workers who work in there.

Alice, I couldn't agree with you more. And we all know how expensive it is for any business in Western Europe to hire an employee. The business pays a lot in taxes to the government. My reaction is not to patronize such restaurants for the very reasons you brought up, and I hope you are not thinking I was arguing with you.

Actually in Italy these costs are lower than in the rest of europe and they are not basically connected to taxes that the business pais, n the other hand the business pays only social services for the employee (and luckily, unlike in many other countries, we have still some social services such as a public health system that is free for everyone who needs it and others like it), while the only mney that goes in taxes is actually money that would be otherways be paid in taxes by the employee, this means that if I get 1000 euro as a monthly wage I do not have to pay taxes on this wge because the taxes have already been paid (ritenuta alla fonte, this is called). My wage is actually about 1500 euro, only that 500 euro of taxes have already been paid in taxes, if these money had not already been paid the business would have to give these money to me, than I would have to pay the same 500 euro in taxes and social services. Inother words, the business pays ME and gives part of the money it owes me to the state in taxes and other services that otherways I would have to pay myself.

Alice, thank you for your rational explanation of why someone might be offended by a tip. I have heard that, and just couldn't see how a tip could be offensive. Your explanation makes it clear. I found it very difficult to pay without leaving a tip, as tipping is ingrained in our system in the U.S., but I managed to do it by telling myself it was the proper thing in Italy. I'm glad to see I was doing the right thing by not tipping. Now, if we could just get the restaurant industy in the US to follow suit and pay a real wage and include that in the prices, we'd have a much better system!<BR><BR>Anne

WARNING, DO NOT USE [email protected]<BR>THEY GOT THE DATE WRONG FOR MY RESERVATION AND ARE TRYING TO FORCE ME TO PAY.

When I'm not sure if I should leave a tip or not, I'll try to see if people from the other tables leave a tip. I look at people who looks like they are locals.

Annie:<BR><BR>Obviously not every Italian worker in Italy feels offended by a tip, but it can happen. As a general rule, if the service is nice and efficient, I leave some change. That's all. This kind of tiny tip means &quot;I am very satisfied, thank you&quot; and is perceived thus by the waiters. In some bars there is a cup (often filled with water) on the counter where you can leave one coin (20 cents or so).

Hey PROBLEM - is that your idea of an Italian tip?

Just back from Italy, and found the tipping extremely perplexing... especially in Venice. After reading here, we realized a tip was not necessary, but as our county's tipping custom is so ingrained, felt odd not leaving something. So we usually left something. But in a touristy restaurant in Venice, we were presented the bill and told &quot;Service is not included.&quot; Also, the &quot;coperto&quot; was generally not enforced, but was so at an outdoor cafe (also in Venice). It was listed on the menu as a &quot;music coperto.&quot; But there was no music. Just a 4.50 charge on top of the 4.50 cup of coffee. <BR>Although we rarely used taxis, we found them quite expensive, and were not sure of the tipping policy there either. We decided to err on the side of generosity.<BR>I would love to hear some further clarification, and hopefully not further debate.<BR>

<BR>I recall music charges at the outdoor tables at Florian's on the Piazza while music was playing.<BR>It generally discourages people from just sitting on the Piazza all day with just one beverage.<BR>However, I would have protested about paying it if the band was not playing.<BR>I hope you liked Venice anyway.

Alice Twain wrote<BR>&gt;...if I get 1000 euro as a monthly wage I do not have to pay taxes on this wge because the taxes have already been paid ...My wage is actually about 1500 euro, only that 500 euro of taxes have already been paid in taxes, ...&lt;<BR><BR> In the US we do the same thing for all employees. It is called &quot;withholding&quot;.<BR><BR> Self-employed people have to pay &quot;estimated taxes&quot; four times a year.<BR>

Hi all,<BR> We once had a waiter who, for some reason, was miffed that we had been assigned to him. The service was awful. Since the service charge had been added to the bill, there was little I could do except complain to the manager, who was not available at the time.<BR> I left a penny for a tip.<BR> The waiter was very peeved.