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I don't know why Agen is pronounced the way it is. Proper nouns (i.e. city names) have pronunciations that are hard to expain.
Saint-Ouen in Paris (the flea market) is pronouced to rhyme with bien or Gien. In Rouen there is a church named Saint-Ouen -- pronounced (oo-wa[n]), like Rouen (roo-wa[n]). |
ckenb,
I question some of your statements. Following your rules, there would be no difference in the pronunciation of these last two syllables: <i>un chant chiant</i>, or between the third and the fifth in <i>mon frangin de Gien</i>. Moreover, I am sure that <i>chien</i> still contains the <i>jod</i>. Of course, Gien may be an exception to the common pronunciation and might rhyme with <i>frangin</i> and <i>engin</i>, but that is the problem with proper nouns and place names--they tend to evolve somewhat differently. |
Proper names...like why is Leicester Square pronounced Lester....
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With respect to "chant" and "chiant," there's a big difference: "chiant" is two syllables; the "i" is pronounced as a vowel rather than a semivowel.
As for the "-gin" in "frangin" vs. "Gien," I think ckenb's point is that, due to the nature of the /zh-/ sound, the difference between them, if any, is much subtler than, say, the difference between "vin" and "vient." |
Jahoulih,
Voilà. Merci. I think "chiant" is nearly two syllables, where "Gien" is nearly one syllable. Interesting. Michael, Yes, chien still contains the semi-vowel, but it is much more subtle than in vient or bien, for example. I don't think Gien has evolved differently -- it's a question of phonetics. Maintenant, ça suffit, non? |
I doubt that <i>chiant</i> has two syllables as it is derived from a word that has only one and <i>chienlit</i> has two, not three syllables. Unfortunately that is the only thing I could find in Le Petit Robert. Someone with a more comprehensive dictionary might be able to better clarify the issue.
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Agen was originally Aginnum (2nd-century Latin for "at the foot of a high place"), according to my Dictionnaire des Noms de Lieux de France. It did not metamorphose into anything else before becoming Agen.
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Interesting - this dictionary confirms that "chier" is one syllable:
http://atilf.atilf.fr/tlfi/ In that case, it forms a minimal pair with "chez," and I suppose "chiant" would form a minimal pair with "chant." |
StCirq -- Does this dictionary give pronunciation for the places? Is the dictionary available in most good-sized bookstores?
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StCirq -- That is, bookstores in France!
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I hear a difference between chiant and chant or chier and chez. But I admit that I don't really hear the 'i' (semivowel) much in Gien or chien. It's clearly there in bien, lien, mien, sien, tient, rien, vient.
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OK, so the flea market is in St. Ouen, which is not pronounced the same way as Rouen? I am totally confused now, but I think I shall begin to talk about the flea market at Clignancourt instead. At least I can pronounce that. I think.
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Hey, in Illinois the town called Cairo is pronounced kay-ro. Albany NY is not pronounced the same way as Albeny GA.
So it the Parisiens and Rouennais want to pronounce Saint-Ouen differently, who are we to quibble? |
Oops --- those towns in NY and GA are both spelled Albany, but pronounced differently.
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vedette:
The dictionary is published by Larousse, so if they're still publishing it, yes, it would be available in France. Mine is the 1963 edition and I picked it up at a State Department book sale in Washington, DC. |
I just found my Dictionnaire de la Prononciation (Larousse 1980) and discovered that it has pronunciations for proper names in an appendix. I hadn't looked at this book in years.
It gives Senlis, for example, with the final -s pronounced. It says Cassis is pronounced without the -s. Carpentras is pronounced without, and Gigondas is pronounced with. |
the best way is still to ask a (local) Frenchman (for the record I know a place called Fitz-James, in Picardie, which is pronounced "fit jam"...)
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Wow! I had no idea this question would be so complicated. The whole thing started because my sister in law pronounced it with a hard "G" It sounded like Geen & I told her that sounded wrong. It sounds like the "zh" part is a given.
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For several years, we had a house in Vineuil St. Firmin, near Chantilly. We never did succeed with the pronunciation of Vineuil, and eventually had to to move1
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Was it not a simple rhyme with "fauteuil"?
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vee-NUH-yuh
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and, as a corollary - - foe-TUH-yuh...
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How about toile and voile? It took me awhile to manage toile; then I pronounced voile the same way, and voila, I'm corrected.
((c)) |
Rex & ckenb,
I did not know that you were <i>méridionaux</i>. |
Yew thaink ah kood live this close to Kentuckee and not expose the uffinity I feel for all my suthren brethren?
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I hail from North Carolina, actually. But I speak French with a Touraine accent.
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Not if you use three syllables for Vineuil, or at least that is what you imply.
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Those are the limitations of trying to explain French pronunciation using spelling that makes sense to a speaker of American English.
I know Vineuil is two syllables... that's why the middle syllable is in ALLCAPS in my "transcription" -- to indicate that's where the stress falls. French words always have the stress on the final syllable. Too bad we can't hear each other speak. I trust you are fluent in French as you said in another thread. You'll just have to trust me. What are your credentials? Or maybe you're one of those people who thinks all Southerners are bad at languages and probably just stupid. How would you transcribe Vineuil so that an American who doesn't speak French could pronounce it? |
Hey, wait a sec ckenb. How can there be a "middle" syllable in a two-syllable word? Looking at my Cassell's, I would think there are three syllables, if indeed it rhymes with fauteuil, though the last syllable wouldn't amount to much.
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Well, that last "syllable" isn't officially a syllable in French phonetics. The final sound is a semi-vowel. We don't have anything in English that corresponds to that.
But since the American pattern is to clip the end of words compared to the way they are pronounced in French (which has strong final consonants and semi-vowels) it's probably better to think of the end sounds of many French words as unstressed syllables. I'm not sure how much sense any of this makes. Michael, maybe I came on too strong. No offense meant. |
Well you guys talked me out of ever wanting to go to that place. Not even supposed French speakers can agree on how you pronounce it. Lets try another:
How do you pronounce "Ouagadougou"? |
That one's easy:
Wa-ga-doo-goo |
and the winner is ckenb! bravo you've got all right and I'm sure because I am French :-)
by the way, would you know how to say "tontontontétatilotétatou&qu ot; it's a funny sentence you have to say quickly, and it's means something. (not written that way of course..) get set, ready, go! corinne :-) |
That was a hard one.
Tonton, ton thé t'a-t-il ôté ta toux? |
bravo mais je pense que tu es français ou francophone car ton clavier a des accents! donc hors concours non mais! :non:
tu es d'où? |
I learned it as "ton thé t'a-t-il <i>tout</i> ôté ta toux".
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Zeus,
Pronunciation is not the issue. The problem is that short of using the International Phonetics Alphabet, it is very difficult to represent the sounds of a foreign language. |
Corinne, je suis américain!
Alas, my keyboard doesn't have accents; my usual method of doing them when posting here is copy and paste. |
jahoulih well done then and sorry for the misunderstanding ;-) I saw that Michael had put accents as well so...
bravo boys! do you know this one? very good for a good prononciation even difficult for frenchies! panier-piano (said several times) and try this one without mixing "sh" and "ss" "les chaussettes de l'archi-duchesse sont-elles sèches, archi-sèches?" good luck! :-) corinne |
Here's one in German:
Hottentottenpotentatentantenattentat |
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