Hobster

Planning on taking a trip to Europe with my wife, 13-year-old daughter and my mother mid-July to end of July. My mother will probably stay most of the time with one of her kids in Germany. But we want to travel and see Europe. This may be the only chance we get. <BR> <BR>Which is more feasible? We will be going to either Munich or Nuremberg (whichever we can get cheaper). The question is: Should we plan on getting a rental car and drive to see Europe or get eurail passes and go on the train. We want to see London, Paris, Rome and maybe a few others. We are looking for the both the most economical and smartest way. I would bet two weeks isn't a lot of time. <BR> <BR>How far apart are some of these places (miles and perhaps driving time)-- Nuremberg to Paris, Paris to London, Nuremberg to Rome, etc.? <BR> <BR>Also wouldn't mind any suggestions you might have on what to see. We know the biggies, but would like to know some others. <BR> <BR>Thanks.

kate

That's an awful lot of ground to cover in 2 weeks, and if you do drive you're going to spend all your time in the car. If you only want to see the major capitals and bypass the rest of the countries, then there's really little point in driving. Train connections between major cities are good. <BR> <BR>Having said that, Rome is in the opposite direction to Paris and London, and in your position I would concentrate on either France and Britain OR Italy. <BR> <BR>If you really do want to cover all these places, have you thought about flying? Many airlines within Europe offer budget fares (if you book early enough) and you might even find one that offers you a rover ticket. Contact Lufthansa in the first instance, explain what you want to do and see if they can put together a deal for you.

Ben Haines

Fodors <BR> <BR>You'll cut time and cost if you fly one way between your extreme points, London to Rome or Rome to London. If you look at Go Airlines no-frills flights on http://www.go-fly.com, ++44 845 60 54321, you'll see that they fly from Stansted, an hour by local train north of London, to Rome and back at 90 pounds or 130 US dollars return. They may offer single fares too, but even a return ticket is worth having: you can jettison half of it. <BR> <BR>The distances are huge. London to Paris 270 miles (no problem), Paris to Nuremberg 490 miles, and Nuremberg to Rome 735 miles, including the Alps. So a train is a better idea than a car. Trains in Europe offer services at the level known in the States in the late forties: they are fsast, frequent abnd comfoirtable. <BR> <BR>London to Paris or back no question: the Eurostar through train in three hours. With time as short as yours is, I suggest Paris, Nuremberg, Rome <BR>in sleeping cars. That way you sleep through the miles. The reference library of a city near you may have the Thomas Cook European Timetable, with suitable trains. First, Paris Est 2227 in two 2-berth type T2 compartments (but not on Saturday nights), Frankfurt change from 0702 to 0719, full breakfast on board, Nuremberg 0931. Second, Nuremberg 1830, dine on board, Munich change 2013 to 2030, Rome 0820. This night train has only 3-berth sleeper compartments in second class, and two berth in first class, which adds fifty percent to the fare. So you can either make the sleeper journey first class, or (which I'd do), put the most adventurous among you (your daughter or you ?) into a separate compartment with two strangers (but they'll be of the same sex), and then the three who want to be together book a compartment to themselves. You'd all be on the same sleeping car. In both Frankfurt and Munich the changes are all on one level, and with free luggage trolleys. <BR> <BR>If your central point is Munich, not Nuremberg, then you'd use the train from Paris Est at 2227 to Munich at 0851. And the trains north are very similar: Rome to Munich by night, Munich to Nuremberg with breakfast, Nuremberg to Frankfurt with dinner, and Frankfurt to Paris by night. If you're keen to see the Tyrolean Alps -- which are, indeed, grand, then you do Munich to Bolzano or northbound by day and Bolzano to Rome or northbound by night. I'll give detail if you ask. <BR> <BR>Also, I keep on disc a note about enjoying sleepers in Europe: shall I send you a copy ? <BR> <BR>Welcome to Europe <BR> <BR>Ben Haines, London <BR> <BR>

sarah

Hobster <BR> <BR>Does you e-mail and name mean you are a Calvin and Hobbes fan!! Well Mr. fellow fan - you are bitting off more that you can chew. My suggestion is as follows. See Nuremburg and the surrounding area. Go to France and leave out of Paris. Rent a car - definately. You will thank me for this. The cost of your 3 or 4 eurrail passes make up the difference. But with a 13 yr old, you'll want to be able to have some flexibilty. Pull over and take a hike at an area that looks inviting. Get out of the car. Plan on at least two nights per stop. Once you have pared down the itinerary. Sit down and do it again. Less is best. Let the 13yr old sit by the pool one afternoon if she wants and do nothing. Allow time for indulgences. etc etc etc.

getting

Please don't try to drive to London.

hobster

I've sent an e-mail to Ben on this, but others can chime in if they want. <BR> <BR>I don't mind driving a number of miles to get to a destination. Like I told him, I've driven all night in the States to get to destinations 700 to 850 miles away. Driving is not the problem. <BR> <BR>But are the roadways in good shape? Are there any speed limits? I've heard there are no speed limits on some roads. Is that true? Is driving the most economical way to go (how much is gas a gallon, rental cars, etc.)? We have a limited budget. We're not the richest people in the world, and this may be the only time we get to take a trip like this, and we want to see the big stuff. Like I said, we may never get to do this again. <BR> <BR>Thanks for any input. But please try not to be cynical about it. I'm just trying to get information about things I have no idea about.

Gina

Hobster, I understand that you want to see Europe and that you fear that this trip will be the only chance you get. But in two weeks, trying to go from Nuremberg/Munich to Paris, Rome, and London "and maybe a few others" won't be a trip, it will be a forced march. <BR>Cities like London, Paris, and Rome really each require three days at minimum to enjoy them properly (and that's really a conservative estimate--after six days in Rome I still didn't feel like I'd done and seen half of what I wanted to), and if you're picking up and moving every night or two, and driving 700-800 miles through the night to get to your next destination, I cannot imagine how you'll enjoy Europe. You might be able to say you've seen a lot of it in two weeks, but will most of it just be a blur through your car window? <BR> <BR>Please, consider the very wise advice offered by Mr. Haines, who really knows what he's talking about regarding travel around Europe, and the other posters who've advised a limited number of destinations on your visit. Yes, it will be frustrating to leave not having seen everything you want, but trust me, that will happen no matter how fast you move. You can't see everything you want to see in Europe in two weeks even traveling by rocket ship. Take the time to enjoy a few magical destinations like Paris and Rome, and it's my bet you'll have more wonderful European memories than if you spend all your time rushing from one destination to the next.

clairobscur

Like the other posters, I advise you not to rent a car. Having a car in the major european towns will not help, but will be a burden. And between them, using trains will be faster, more confortable for everybody and you'll be fresh and able to enjoy your stay. With 4 persons aboard, a car will probably be cheaper, though gas (and tolls) is expensive here. But as Mr Haines said, you'll save what you would have paid at the hotel if you travel on night trains. <BR> <BR> <BR> Note that except on the german highways, there's speed limits everywhere. Also, you'll not be alone on the roads during the second half of july. At the bare minimum, don't take a car between Paris and London. It makes no sense.

Russ

<BR>Hi, Hobster! I hope you have a nice trip, but I think it will be nicer by train, and nicer yet if you resist trying to hit all those spots in just 2 weeks. On the train, you can meet others, walk around, have a cup of coffee, and just relax -- no parking troubles or traffic jams. Let's assume you're flying into Munich and you've seen the wisdom of dropping, say, Rome, which can be hotter than Hades in mid-summer, and you're going to Paris and London. First off, try to get an open-jaws ticket that lets you fly back home out of London, so that you don't have to cross the channel twice, saving you either big bucks (Eurostar + train fare back to Munich) or big time (from London, train-ferry-train back to Munich. There's a night train that leaves Munich around 8:50 and gets into Paris at about 7 a.m. This schedule lets you save on the Germany stretch by buying "Guten Abend" tickets across Germany -- just 59 DM for each. It's about 220 DM for the 3 of you from Germany's border to Paris, maybe 50 DM less if your daughter qualifies your group for the "Decouverte" discount (parents get 25% discount if travelling with a kid, but is 13 a kid??) so the most this trip will cost is about $200, less if the discounts apply, a little more if you get a sleeping berth. <BR> <BR>You can save quite a bit on the Paris - London route by going train-ferry-train, but it takes the better part of a day. The boat ride is fun, though, if the weather's good. Cheaper (and a little slower) yet is the Eurolines Bus. For about $60 each, you can get a ticket that covers everything from Paris to London. The bus drives onto the ferry, you get off and enjoy the ride, then get back on the bus in Dover and continue on to London. <BR> <BR>Instead of hassling with Rome, stay in Bavaria and enjoy your time there -- it's easy to get to Salzburg, Würzburg (don't you want to see the Residenz palace there??: http://www.wuerzburg.de/tourismus/se.../residenz.html ) <BR> Bamberg, and other terrific cities and towns. You can do this economically by train, since Bavaria has daypasses good for up to 5 people each that allow almost unlimited travel on the regional trains for about $18/day -- for the whole group. <BR> <BR>So if you spent 4 days tooling around Bavaria by train, then did the Paris - London thing, you're looking at about $450 total transportation expenses as a base price -- more for the Eurostar, sleeping berths, and if you have to get back to Munich to fly out. Better than 2 weeks' car rental + gas + insurance + tolls + hassle, IMHO. <BR> <BR>Hope this helps. <BR>Russ

Ed

Ask yourself if, on a two week vacation, you'd plan on visiting the US and hitting New York, Atlanta, Chicago, San Francisco, LA, Houston and maybe St. Louis. If so, your plan sounds good. <BR> <BR>To figure out how much time you'll be spending traveling you can use www.mappy.co.uk to calculate driving times and www.rail.ch to learn train schedules. <BR> <BR>Train generally, generally, more expensive than car for more than two people. But there are deals that reduce that difference. Parking can be expensive (e.g. $20-25/night) in big cities. Fuel is around $4/gallon, perhaps a tad less some places, upt o $5 in others. Euro cars typically get better mileage, but with four people and luggage you wouldn't be using a tiny econobox. <BR> <BR>Car vs. train also depends on where you're going. If you're going to bop around to the delightful smaller cities in Bavaria and King Ludwig's castles, for example, a train is a pain and a car is the key. Makes no sense, on the other hand, to drive from London to Paris. <BR> <BR>In the end, we can't answer the question for you. You have to figure out where you want to go and find the transport that fits best. And you're the only one that can figure out how much time you want to spend driving, riding or looking for a place to stash the car vs. time spent enjoying the sights, and smelling the roses. <BR> <BR>Ed