Not to freak you out at this point in your planning, but have you considered at all going on your own?

I (like many on this board) would rather shoot myself than spend 14 days on a tour bus. When I realize how much I'd be paying for the "priveledge" I'd truly consider it.

If either you or your hubby is willing to drive "on the wrong side of the road" (not that difficult to do) then I'd vote for renting a cottage or villa in the SW of Ireland and then maybe another week rental nearer Dublin. You could take day trips out and about, have your own place to eat and relax, maybe leave the parents behind if they are tired etc. for an excursion.

Ireland is so easy to "do it yourself" and so delightful to see and enjoy. It's one place I'd really hate to be on a bus.

My mom and I did 10 days on our own and in the last B&B before we flew out we were joined by two retired couples from a neighboring state. They had just finished up a week tour and were beginning the "real" part of their vacation - heading back to see the things they couldn't see while on the tour.

By the way, your costs would be a fraction of what you are planning to spend - and will probably be a much enjoyable vacation.

KarenO,
If the tipping is bothering you, would recommend that you look into going independently. Like several other posters, I recommend getting a cottage for 1 week in the north and another for a week in the south with a car hire. You can find your own private local guide for various days (of course, tipping will have to be addressed again).

You have much more flexibility and freedom. It does require a lot more planning and work on your part though, both ahead of time and during the trip. But I've always found that the planning and research are a large part of the fun - helps build the anticipation. Everyone is usually eager to pitch in. (You'll get a lot of info and help from these foruns in addition to internet searches/guidebooks). Makes for a very memorable experience.
You should map out the absolutes that you want to do and figure out an itinerary so they can be covered. You also should see realistically, time and distance wise, what you can do without feeling rushed. Things will not go exactly as planned and you should plan for a bit of seredipity along the way. Also part of the fun.

By doing things independently, your costs should be much less than $18,000 + tips. And more flexibility. I think the bus tour groups often stop at various shopping venues where the guide gets a commission (HATED that!), so you'll avoid that waste of time.
You get to know the area better, living and shopping like a local. The Irish are wonderfully friendly and hospitable people. Don't be surprised if the locals invite you over for dinner or for a night out at the village pub.

Whatever you decide, enjoy!

If it were just me and my husband we would not take a tour and do our own thing. However, it is really difficult trying to please everyone and it would be much easier for me to just do the tour. Everyone wants to go but no one wants to help plan the trip. No one wants to drive (and I keep my eyes closed when my father-in-law drives and my husband is just as bad, he gets very stressed driving in unfamillar places) and I am the only one in the family that seems to be able to read a map (try driving in a busy city and reading a map at the same time). If my daughter is forced by someone outside the family to get up on time she will do so but if we were on our own it would take half the day just to get her out of bed (16 yesrs old) and by the time everyone agrees on where to go and how to get there, and believe me my daughter will not want to go anywhere I or her father wants to go, hours have been wasted. I have become so stressed out on trips we have all taken together in the past that only a few days into the trip I would wish we were home. That's because I end up doing all of the work, I take care of all the problems and I have to make all of the decisions. Everyone else is on vacation so they just want to be led around and shown a good time and besides they all say I'm just so good at doing all that! On a tour I can relax and be on vacation myself and no one will look to me to make all the plans. I know it is more expensive but when you have all different kinds of personalities to deal with and please it just seems less stressful to do the tour.

As you well know, "tips are supposed to be optional, but, of course, are expected".

Don't worry about it until during your tour.

You can "show your appreciation" or not, all depending upon how you feel about the service(s) you've received.

Some drivers, tour guides, are exceptional, others are just not. Occasionally, some seem more intent on convincing you to "show your appreciation" than providing fabulous commentary. You'll easily figure out the difference all along the way.

On an escorted tour, tips are most definitely optional. And, you should not feel obligated to tip if you just don't feel like it.

To give you a couple of examples, we took a Grayline tour to the Laurentians in Montreal once, and the main tour guide was more concerned about "appreciation" than anything else, mentioning same over and over again. Our bus was mostly populated by Asians, and he actually had the audacity to determine the passenger most fluent in English and request that they explain "tipping" to the rest of the Asians.

On the other hand, on a Viking river cruise through Russia, we had the most amazing "local" guide for Moscow. She could not have been more knowledgeable, charming, informative. The "suggested" tip was $2. We gave her $20, she was so incredible.

Go with your gut. Tips are optional. Do not concern yourself with "expected", and, for heavens sake not solicited.

Hello KarenO, always being the "travel agent" etc. in my family I sure understand how you feel. I can relate. We never did tours as my husband refused to, he didn't have to, he had me,LOL!

Have a beautiful trip and just consider the tips as part of the trip.

And I sure wish you a relaxing and happy time in Ireland.

"I have eaten in restaurants with larger groups where a tip of 17 1/2% was automaticly added to the bill. They were the worst waiters ever! ... What did they care, they got their tip no matter what. No incentive to do their job."

Karen, I suggest you try eating in countries like mine (there are others too) where tipping is the exception rather than the rule, because by law the staff must be paid enough to live on. No compulsory tips are added to your bill, either. Surprise, surprise -most of the time you'll meet people who do their jobs efficiently and with a (genuine) smile. They have no need to grovel and abase themselves for tips.

Seriously, though, why on earth do you go on trips with that family of yours? - it sounds like sheer bloody murder. Why don't you just grab your husband (assuming he can be prevailed upon to be part of the solution, not part of the problem), tell the rest to get stuffed, sod off and do your own thing? Send the buggers a postcard from your DIY tour of Ireland!

Love Neil from Oz's post!

KarenO, if you go on the tour, please budget for tips. Whether you tip or not should depend on the quality of the guide/drivers. Not because you don't want to pay extra.

Not all guides/drivers are what like the Grayline one djkbooks described. That is more the exception than rule. Despite what you said earlier about your group being low-maintenance, your most recent description sounds like they will require extra attention by the guide to make sure everyone is having a good time. It sounds like the guide/driver may be able to accomplish something you cannot on your own. Most do an excellent job and try to make the trip special for everyone. Make no mistake, this does require A WHOLE LOT of special effort on their parts. It would be shame not to tip accordingly just because you didn't want to add any more expenses.

Neil, your description of fairly paid employees is what we've always found to be true, both in our own business and in others. I know that our American economic system is very heavily invested in the concept of "commission" sales and tipping, which is not too much different. I think both are seriously flawed.

TIP = To Insure Personal Service.

Given that definition, I prefer to use a two step process. First, I like to cash "tip" my tour guide in advance. OK... maybe it's a bribe... Anyway, I do not see it as a "reward" (after the fact) for having someone treat me with kindness and respect (that should be part of the deal). My second step is an 'after-the-fact' reward in the form of a glowing follow-up thank you letter written to the tour company owner praising the guide. My hope is this two-step process will serve "to insure personal service" for travelers who follow me.

Also, I only tip employee guides, not the boss, or tour company owner (even if it's the owner conducting the tour). No tour owner should ever accept a tip even if offered. Their reward should be many great referrals and repeat business, if warranted.

Enjoy your trip...
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Michael'nA2

With your description, I also don't see how you can say your group won't need much attention. And I agree with Neil, why on earth do you travel with these people?! You're spending a LOT of money to spend time with people who are no fun at all. Leave your daughter at home with the in-laws and just go with your husband!

Karen asked for tipping advice, not life-coaching. This is her family. She's described only the reasons they're taking a tour---not giving a complete personality profile of each person, for pete's sake. Under the circumstances I think she's doing the right thing if everyone wants to go on the trip,but no one wants to plan it.

You all forget, not everyone LIKES to plan trips!

I've been married 21 years! In that time we have only taken a few trips with the whole family. I blamed my daughter's age for her difficulty but in reality she has ALWAYS been a pain to travel with. My husband and I usually leave her with his parents when the two of us travel and the two of us have had some wonderful trips together (though he can often be a pain himself). Even for the two of us I have had to plan every detail so that he would feel more relaxed and be easier to travel with. Of course, since I am doing all the planning, I get to do more of the things that I like to do! Anyway, my husband has always dreamed of going to Ireland with his parents, he has talked about it for years. All of his grandparents are from there. Because I have no one to leave my daughter with (my mom died years ago and my dad is in poor health) we have no choice but to take her with us. However, we are also taking along her best friend so hopefully she'll be somewhat placated. The family is only difficult with each other, they put their best face forward with others. This is why they won't need special attention from the tour guide. From past experience I know they will pretty much go along with whatever is offered when it comes from people outside the family, unless of course there is a major unexpected problem with a room of with the food ( like finding a finger in their chili-American joke!)

KarenO -

Look at it this way. going on a tour is like going on a cruise - tipping is part of the deal (unless you pick a no-tipping cruise line and pay their prices).

You are obviously free to tip less if you receive poor service - but your going in assumption should be that there are 6 people and the tip per day per person is about $13.

The simple fact is that- like wait staff - these people get most of their income from tips. If you are uncomfortable with tipping this amount - then - like with a restaurant - you need to pick a less expensive place,

Karen, have a great time. Not all kids like to be outside their comfort zone and are difficult because of that, but I'll bet your daughter will really enjoy herself more with her friend along. And tip, or not--it's entirely YOUR choice.

Actually, given the situation, a good tour could take the pressure off and let people enjoy things more and people can do their own thing this way. That price seems very expensive to me, but I haven't taken one in many years and only spent around $100 a day for the tours I took, that was my target price. I only went on budget tours, though, but they were very good and the guides I had were excellent. As I said, I wasn't on some major bus excursion though, so didn't have that expense so much.

The tour guides I had didn't really cater to people to see if they were having a good time or not, that's sort of up to the individual's personality and initiative. Their main job was logistics and to make sure things ran smoothly, although they would answer questions for people who needed to know things (ie, where do I get the bus downtown, etc). We usually had special guides for the museums or sites who were art or history specialists.

Just a warning, if the daughter doesn't like getting up early, the tour guide does nothing to get people up, of course. In fact, she can more easily sleep in with a tour than if someone in her own family and room is bugging her to get up. When we did have some scheduled excursions, they might say the bus to xyz will be leaving at 10 am, but if you weren't there, they'd just go without you as there was no requirement you take them. I guess if you were moving accommodations overnight, they'd have to find out where people were.

Any tips are optional, of course, but I think one should be fair with the guides if they are good. I remember the tour guide I had in Egypt really helped because she was Egyptian, of course, and there was a real "whatever" attitude by some of the hotels etc there which I could not have dealt with on my own (they wouldn't have cared what I said) -- but as soon as she read them the riot act, things got fixed or changed. I remember once they expected me to stay in a room with a broken door lock and a lost key, telling me to just find some hotel staff person to let me in the room when I wanted to get in. This was a 4* hotel, also, and they were unmoved by my complaints but as soon as I complained to the tour guide, I magically had a new room in a few minutes after she talked to them. Anyway, I was on a budget tour and did not earn much money then, so didn't tip lavishly, but wasn't cheap for my circumstances.

I hope you have a good time for all that.

I have to agree - either choose the tour with the presumption you will pay the standard tips, or don't go at all.

I understand the teenager who doesn't like to get up early, having two myself (and being somewhat that way myself too).

Maybe you could put her in a camp program or something, given the nature of the trip you have in mind. I do think it's quite likely she won't be thrilled to get up for the tour guide either.

I'm just wondering what will happen if your family doesn't like the tour. Will they then blame you for not planning the trip independently? Anyway, I hope you have a trip that turns out great!

My first reaction was also that this was very expensive but if you take out airfare and make it per person, it is maybe around $2000 each--AND for 2 weeks, a pretty long time.

Karen: I was one of the early advocates for your doing the escorted tour, mainly because we've taken a variety of family members on a variety of trips.

Here's my immediate family's point of view: they actually are rather non-complaining. What they hate is that I stress out about details in trying to worry about their happiness.

They enjoy our group tours because I get to "vacation" instead of "guide." That does not mean they want to go only on escorted tours. Quite the contrary--we value our independent tours, too. Research and planning, after all, are fun tasks.

Here's my extended famiy's point of view: No one likes to vacation the same way, and whatever I plan is flat-out wrong for someone. What you want to do in the view of my dad or my sister or her husband is "boring," "worthless," "balderdash," etc. I have found that spending even an hour's worth of time making any two of my extended family members happy is a total waste.

I recommend one of two tactics. First, you can assign each family member the scheduling of at the very least one day, planning it from end-to-end, including transportation, meals and accomodations. And let them know that if the day is horrible, they are going to have to hear about it.

Or place all your energy into finding a really good tour.

Wishing you a very happy, happy vacation.

(And look on the bright side, at least you'll be touring a country where downing a few drinks to get over your family sorrows won't be looked down upon!)

My sister's family went on a 5 week "dream of a lifetime" trip to Europe that the grandmother wanted them to experience. In short, the kids were jerks and unappreciative the whole time. Most of the time my sister was absolutely miserable.

I just hate for you to spend that kind of money if everyone hasn't "bought in" to the trip. If all aren't going to have good attitudes, I'd cancel altogether or leave the grummpy ones at home. I'd suggest a sincere reality check before you book.

My terms would be - Bad attitudes not allowed. Tell me now so you can stay home or shut up on the trip.

Good luck.

The tour guide make the biggest amount off you by getting you to do optional tours and by taking you to certain gift shops where they get kick backs

I took a tour with Insight.
The pre trip poop said to tip the guide 6€ per day and tip the driver 4€ per person.
It was a 7 day tour, so that meant my wife and I were supposed to fork over 140€ in tips.

There were about 35 of us on the tour.
so at 70€ per person, following the guidelines means that 2,450€
was paid out. If 60% went to the guide, she got 1470€ for the week.
On a 50 week basis that comes out to
73,500 €. I doubt if the guides earn much at all on tours in the winter.

There were plenty of optional tours and I would assume that the guide and driver did not have to pay for hotel rooms themselves, or for meals.

I think what I object to is the tipping angle, period. In some respects the guide is gambling on people paying extra and it also means that tour prices are false -- the tour costs a lot more than the brochure price.

I agree: Don't they pay those people? And the answer is no they don't.

Gambling is right, Brookwood---with the employees' salaries. The only entity that comes out on top is the tour company.

Brookwood,

Those guides also do not work 52 weeks a year. My first trip to Europe I took a tour, the guide mentioned to us that she only worked 2 - 3 months out of the year and that most guides do not work all year around.

Actually, your posts sounded like jealousy to me. Would you want to be responsible for 40 adults on a trip, half of which will probably whine and bitch about something, some about everything. They also work 12 to 18 hours a day with no days off during the tour.

Lastly, a tip is not obligatory, so it is not a hidden cost. Therefore, if you begrudge tipping so much, don't tip the tour guide and just slither away back home at the end of the trip.

The thought of having to tip on top of already hefty tour costs is one of the things that keeps us traveling on our own. I just don't understand why tour prices (and cruise prices, too) aren't all-inclusive so you know exactly what the cost is up front.

I never expect a tip when providing guide services. Some people offer tips, and if they offer I accept, but I don't expect anything, and if they give me nothing, that's fine. The price I quote them is the only price they need to pay.

The same holds for group tours. I charge only what I've quoted the tour company, and I don't expect tips from the company or from anyone on the tour.

I consider the whole idea of tips a bit dishonest, particularly for guides who are self-employed. If you think you are worth more than you charge, why not just charge more? Why do you need _extra_ money? The amount I quote is all I expect; if I think I'm worth more, I'll quote more. Sheesh.

Anthony- We're not talking about contracted guides like you who are well-paid.(You actually decide how much you are paid.) We're talking about employees for tour companies,who make very little money and count on tips for a good chunk of their income.Think of how servers in restaurants in the U.S. are paid.

In France, at least, your tip is included in restaurants _by law_, and it is usually 15%. You don't have to add anything on top of that; you can just pay what's on the bill.

If someone is an employee and is truly so poorly paid that he can't get by on that pay alone, then I suppose tips make more sense ... but in that case, he really should consider changing jobs. There are a lot of minimum-wage jobs that don't include any tips at all, and I don't see why some people should expect and receive tips and others should not, especially when they are making the same wage. Why should you tip a waiter, for example, if you don't tip the counter service or the person with the mop at McDonald's? The former is probably _better_ paid than the latter.

I think that ethically anyone should always be "pleasantly surprised" by a tip; that is, nobody should ever expect tips. If they routinely get tips, great, but they should never behave as though they automatically deserve a tip.

Sometimes you just have to accept that the world works the way it works.Different industries are structured differently(and differently from country to country.)

In some countries,servers in restaurants are paid a decent salary,in others they are not,and it is customary to tip.Some countries have free museums,others require payment.Sometimes you pay to enter a church.That's just the way the cookie crumbles.

Anthony, in many US restaurants, waiters are paid less than minimum wage because it is assumed that they will make a good percentage of their pay in tips, so that person at the counter at McDonald's is making more per hour than many waiters.

I actually have a problem with a tip that is automatically added to my bill, because then it is "not" a tip, it is a charge. I agree that a tip should be voluntary and it really irks me for restaurants, and some do it in the States as well, that just tack it on. I think it allows the waiter/waitress to do a minimal job because they know that no matter what, they will get their tip.

Then you must also assume that people in other occupations that don't involve tips are not making any special effort to do their work well, since they are paid the same whether they work well or not. Perhaps doctors and lawyers would do a better job if they knew they'd get a tip, eh?

AnthonyGA,

That's a silly assumption...doctors and lawyers do not make a large portion of their pay through tips. And it is simply not part of how things work. I think you're just trying to argue for arguing sake.

A tip is by definition extra $ for a job well done, it shouldn't be assumed which is what those restaurants do. And frankly, they do themselves in, because I usually tip more than 15%.

I agree with Anthony. If the employees are so poorly paid that they absolutely depend upon tips, then their source of income is inconsistent at best and much lower than they expected at worst.


Lyb, you state that the definition of a tip is "extra $ for a job well done."

By using the word "extra" aren't you acknowledging that it is not mandatory, expected or a moral obligation?

kswl,

Of course, I agree that it's not mandatory, for a tour or at a restaurant, but that is part of the customs. In certain professions, like hair dresser, massaseuse, restaurants, tour guides, etc...if the person does a very good job, you tip them, if they do an extremely good job, you tip them even more.

I have once or twice not tipped anything in a restaurant because the service was so horrid, I didn't think they deserved anything...yet, at other restaurants, as I mentioned before, I've tipped 20% or more.

You could try breaking down what the driver does thus:

$1 per bag * twice a day (load in a.m, unload in p.m).

For six people, assuming only one stowed bag per person, that's $12 a day, times 12 nights, for $144. Add about a dollar per person per day if you wish as a gift for other related services, and you have $215 or so to the driver for your group of 6. That's roughly $3 per person per day for the driver, which is what many tour companies recommend.

The tour guide is a bit more complex, because they might have the option of selling additional tours, on which they collect a commission. If you don't purchase any optional tours, compute what 15 per cent of the optional tour cost would be if you took one every third day. Personally, I'd rather do this and do the 'optional' stuff on my own, it would still be cheaper. If you do buy optional tours, factor in this commission as part of the tour guide tip. At 15 per cent, commission on 4 optionals per person sold at an average of $50 each, would be $180 for a group of 6.

That said, the tour guide has more contact with you than the driver, so you'd want to at least match the tip paid to the driver. So you're talking $180 plus $215 for around $400.

In total, that's $400 for the tour guide, $200 for the driver, for a minimum tip of around $600 for your group.

I can't speak to whether this gives the parties concerned enough to live on, or whether it is customary, etc. etc. I'm only trying to relate the tour tip as closely as possible to what the individuals might expect for tips were they working as bell hops or commission sales people.

Rkkwan: Regarding your comment that tipping works: Many things in the world 'work', i.e. exist and are ongoing. That, in an of itself, is not evidence of efficiency, let alone fairness. For example, convenience is efficient in terms of time, but not always in terms of money. You are also assuming that all parties to a transaction have the same interests, when they do not. Tour companies have a vested interest in offloading payroll and supervisory duties to their customers, who aren't paid anything for their desperate attempts to discharge these duties. A similar situation exists with the airlines, who don't compensate me for carrying the capital cost of the computer or the operational (Internet server) cost that I incur in order to book my own travel.

In short, tipping exists, and I tip because I'm stuck with the practice until the regulatory bodies rule otherwise, but I maintain that it is neither as efficient nor as fair as true free market pricing.

Lyb, I guess we are in agreement in principle, but I ONLY tip for above and beyond, not for fair services rendered; those I expect for the price of the service.

Sue xx yy, although your method of determining the amount of the tip is derived in a fairly straightforward fashion, I would still object to paying a tip for an optional trip I did not even take! That, to me, simply underscores the ridiculous and ambivalent nature of tipping.

Your last remarks bring to mind a thought I had when I was at Walmart, checking out my own purchases. I wondered when we would all have to register our names and addresses as customers, and would be sent postcards giving us the time of our monthly shelf-stocking shift. :'(

the kind of places I don't tip at is Starbucks, or any other kind of food to go places....it actually irritates me that the litte jar is there, asking for extra money, when all they did is take my order and then gave me my coffee. And some of these servers seem to barely have the energy to smile, so therefore, I don't have the energy to put any money in their jar. :)

Legally they are not permitted to have that jar. The law says that tips must be included in the bill. But if they feel they are above the law that requires them to keep emergency exists unlocked, I guess they also feel that they are above the law that says tips must be included in the bill.

Wow...this April thread about tipping renewed in July generated lots of blather! I've seen repeated several times our own experience on a recent Grand Circle tour: you'll get info from the company, also suggested $5 per day for guide, $3 for driver.
ozarksbill
(Back from Central Europe)